Ep 34: Vulnerability Workshop
92,000 Hours
Welcome to season 4 of 92,000 Hours! This season, we’re focusing on putting everything we have learned from past episodes into practice in our own lives. Each week, we will dive into specific topics and ask you to reflect and take action. Get out your notebooks, because this season requires a lot of self reflection!
This week's topic is vulnerability and courage. When was the last time you felt vulnerable? And if you struggle to identify that moment, let’s phrase it a different way - when was the last time you felt brave?
If you want to leave us a voicemail about your thoughts on this episode, or our next episode's topic (identity), call us! Our number is 385-501-7333.
Transcript
Annalisa Holcombe (00:53
In the first three seasons of this podcast, we have engaged in deep conversations with individuals we consider to be experts next door. In this season, we're doing something different. We're providing real, how to info about what happens when we really engage these questions. Instead of asking questions of my podcast guests, this time I'm asking you. So, if you're cooking dinner or driving or going on a walk while listening, that's okay. Sometimes we need to multitask. But if you have the space and time, this episode and this whole season is best if you can sit down and engage more directly. Get out a pen and paper, open up a word doc and reflect. Pause the podcast when you need. Go back to something when you want to reflect more, but give yourself this gift.
Annalisa Holcombe (01:54
So, our first episode was on trust, and I mentioned how scary it was for me, as simply putting this out there is deeply vulnerable for me. I had asked for feedback from you, our listeners, and I didn't get a lot. We will try harder this time to get the word out, but I'm really hoping to hear from you, especially because in this episode, our subject is vulnerability and courage. But before we dig into that, I want to make sure we follow up and have some closure on our trust discussion. Did you do the trust work sheet that was provided on our Connection Collaborative blog? How about the trust quotient assessment that can be found at trustsuite.trustedadvisor.com.
Annalisa Holcombe (02:37
One of our listeners wrote back. Thank you so much Stormy, that the reflection on trust really helped her think through the ways that she has differentiated trust with colleagues and coworkers, and trust with her family and personal relationships, and she reflected on what that means to her. For me, I did the trust quotient and I learned that my biggest area of strength is intimacy. No surprise there, here I am talking about trust on a podcast. But what I also learned is I need to work on reliability, sadly also not a surprise to me. I'm a person who takes on too much and I struggle to get it all done timely. Does that sound familiar to any of you type A's out there? This may be something that makes us seem a bit less trustworthy and it's something we could work on.
Annalisa Holcombe (03:30
Again, I'd love to hear from you about what you learned about trust and about yourself in this process. The feedback loop is an important part of our learning and our growth. And it's just more fun when we share with each other. But now we're going to talk about vulnerability and courage, and this is something really important and personal to me. I've been talking about these subjects for nearly 20 years and I have found that it is still very uncomfortable. So the first question I have for you is, when I say let's talk about vulnerability, how does that make you feel? Are you physically uncomfortable? Do you feel defensive? Or are you excited and you want to lean in?
Annalisa Holcombe (04:19
And if I were to say, let's talk about courage, how does that make you feel? Is there a big difference? When we say courage, do you find yourself sitting up a little straighter? What are the differences between your physical and emotional reaction to those two ideas, vulnerability and courage? Now, get curious with yourself. Why do you think there is or isn't a difference for you? Take a minute. This is a place where you could pause the podcast and think about it. Simply sitting with those two big concepts and reflecting on your reaction can tell you a lot about yourself and your own vulnerability and courage. Do you associate vulnerability with weakness, or do you associate it with courage itself?
Annalisa Holcombe (05:10
For example, I've experienced wildly different reactions from people when I talk about these two concepts. While this is a generality, of course, it is worth noting. Over the years, when I told my college students that we were going to talk about vulnerability, in general they leaned in. They were really interested in talking about the different ways that they experienced vulnerability, and they wanted to learn strategies for coping with their own vulnerabilities.
Annalisa Holcombe (05:39
On the other hand, when I told my own faculty members in my leadership PhD program that I wanted to study leader vulnerability, I was met with blank stares. It was as though individuals who were over 50 really struggled with even comprehending the idea that leaders were vulnerable, which of course makes me really curious. As a society, we love to talk about courage and bravery. But really, you can't be brave unless you're overcoming some kind of vulnerability. When we think about the ways that we celebrate courage, we love an underdog story here in America.
Annalisa Holcombe (06:21
I also want to celebrate courage that takes place every day, the type of courage that takes place in those more intimate moments when others may not even realize that you were just courageous. So take a minute and ask yourself, when was the last time that you felt vulnerable? If you struggle to identify that moment, let me phrase it a different way. When was the last time you felt brave? Did you stand up for yourself? Did you speak up in a meeting? Did you run a 5k? Did you overcome an illness? What was it that you did that was brave?
Annalisa Holcombe (07:01
Now let's deconstruct that because there is no bravery, there is no courage without vulnerability. What made that brave moment brave? Because underneath that, that's where you find the vulnerability. Brené Brown defines vulnerability as uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure. Really think about that for a moment. If that is what vulnerability looks like, uncertainty, risk, emotional exposure, then aren't we all walking around with vulnerability sitting on our shoulder all the time?
Annalisa Holcombe (07:41
If you thought about how you've been brave, and your example was speaking up in a meeting, what was the vulnerability? Really, what was it? Was it that maybe you could be wrong? Was it that you didn't belong there? Was it that you may not be as smart as you hoped? Was it that you wouldn't be taken seriously due to your age, gender, or appearance? What was the vulnerability? Where do you feel that soft tenderness that comes along with vulnerability? So really, think about that last time that you felt brave or vulnerable and dig deeper. What was the uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure that you were facing? When you see it and name it, it will be a bit less scary.
Annalisa Holcombe (08:35
I hope you're enjoying this episode. If you would like to dig in and listen more and learn more about this, I encourage you to listen to prior episodes on vulnerability on our 92,000 Hours podcast. I had a great conversation about this with Jim Carter in season one, and I was honored to be interviewed by Shamby Polychronis on the subject of vulnerability in season three. Please take a look. Find those episodes by looking at 92,000 Hours wherever you hear your podcasts.
Annalisa Holcombe (09:22
When I think about vulnerability, for me, right now, vulnerability is pretty clear and easily understood by others when I'm talking about my young daughter's heart condition, but it is less understood by others and feels a little more personal even when I'm talking about the vulnerability I feel when I'm speaking up and I'm the only woman at the table. And especially when I'm unclear if my voice is welcome. Each of those instances, dealing with my daughter's illness, speaking up when I'm unsure of myself, each of those are full of uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure.
Annalisa Holcombe (10:09
What are times that you felt the same way? This is hard stuff, and I encourage you to really settle in and think about it. And while you're at it, I also encourage you to think about the individuals in your life with whom you can talk about this. Brené Brown calls them your square squad. And these are the individuals in your life with whom you can speak honestly, openly, and with real vulnerability. You really only need to have one person who is in your square squad. And honestly, you probably wouldn't have many more than a handful if you're being truly honest with yourself about them.
Annalisa Holcombe (10:46
These are the few people who you know really care about you, whatever happens and without reservation. These are the people who you know have your back and whose constructive criticism and opinions actually truly matter to you. So take a moment, write those names down, physically write those names down. Look at the list. How do you feel? When you think about these people, what are the emotions that wash over you? Over the course of the next few weeks, I really want to encourage you to take the time to reach out to the names you just wrote down and let them know how much their support and understanding means to you. And then let me know. Send an email, leave a voicemail or a note on social media. I would love to hear from you what it felt like to thank these people in your life. How did they react? What was it like for you?
Annalisa Holcombe (11:48
And as you think about those individuals, I'm willing to bet that those individuals didn't suddenly appear on your list. The relationship that you have built with them has grown little by little over time. In our last episode, we talked about trust, and this is where trust is so important to our discussion of vulnerability. This small group, your square squad, is there because a trusting relationship has built up over time little by little. If you think of each small interaction with someone in which they have demonstrated that they treat you with care, respect, and understanding, that container of safety is being built. This can happen in your personal life, but it can also happen professionally.
Annalisa Holcombe (12:33
Each time someone gives you helpful, constructive and kind feedback, each time you are encouraged, each time something that you've done is recognized, especially if it isn't something grand but something important and a little harder to see, that trust container is being built. Over time, these little moments that lead to someone you know you can be vulnerable with, it takes this time and this effort to really build this container of safety, and I can't say enough how precious having this in your life is. Anyone who invests this type of time and care in you is someone I encourage you to invest in as well.
Annalisa Holcombe (13:14
Also, I think it's important to notice that we all need different levels of safety and comfort in order to be vulnerable. For some, it can be built really quickly. And for others, it takes a very long time. And all of that is okay. You can't rush trust or safety or vulnerability. That type of intimacy really needs to build over time.
Annalisa Holcombe (13:40
And finally, it wouldn't be right to talk about vulnerability without also talking about boundaries. Compassionate, vulnerable people can and do have strong boundaries. Having these boundaries is important because it means that you have taken the time to know what is okay and what isn't okay for you in your relationships with others. Think about that. Creating and articulating those boundaries is really one of the kindest things that you can do for yourself, but also for the people around you.
Annalisa Holcombe (14:14
There are people in your life who haven't yet, and some who never will, earn the right to know certain things about you. And that's okay. In fact, it's actually really healthy. So again, ask yourself, what are your healthy boundaries? And maybe it's easier, again, just like we did before, to think about a time in your personal or professional life when you have felt that someone crossed the line and that your boundaries weren't respected. What happened that felt bad or wrong? What boundary was crossed? Had you articulated your boundaries to this person in advance? In fact, did you even know at the time that this was a boundary that you had? Now that you think about that moment, how can you take this knowledge about yourself now and create the language that you need to articulate this boundary in the future?
Annalisa Holcombe (15:13
I think this is really important because a lot of us spend time in our lives being really mad at people for crossing boundaries that we had not even told them were there. So if we take responsibility for our own health and happiness and identify what those boundaries are and communicate them to the people who we work with or interact with or in relationship with, it leads to a much healthier and happier relationship. It is, however, vulnerable to actually say to someone, "This is the boundary I have." But I promise, the more you do it, the easier and more authentic it can be.
Annalisa Holcombe (16:03
The best way to do this is to practice it with someone in your square squad. Let them know that you're trying to figure out what your boundaries are and how to identify when they're being crossed. Ask them for help in doing that. And I encourage you to be the person that can listen to that person in your square squad and give them the same amount of respect and grace.
Annalisa Holcombe (16:29
So as we finish up, I want to remind you, vulnerability isn't a weakness. It is simply the precursor to courage. We are all vulnerable in different ways and at different times, but we are in fact vulnerable. I talked before about different ways that I see vulnerability in myself and how I can recognize it. And when I do take that moment to recognize it, it really does become a little less scary.
Annalisa Holcombe (17:06
When I'm at my most healthy, I can recognize the feeling that I have as vulnerability. I can see it and say, "Yes, I'm uncertain right now. This could be a little risky and I feel a bit exposed emotionally. But hello vulnerability. I see you. You're simply my companion." Vulnerability is there, often whether I like it or not, and I know that I can make it feel a lot less scary when I just acknowledge it, honor its presence, respect its boundaries, and move forward in my life anyway. I hope that some of these exercises can help you do the same.
Annalisa Holcombe (17:53
So now it is time for you to do your homework. First, go back and listen to this again. Throughout this episode, I have asked a lot of questions about vulnerability. We've included those questions and more as a companion to this episode and a self-reflection worksheet. You can find it in our Connection Collaborative blog at connectioncollaborative.com/blog.
Annalisa Holcombe (18:20
Second, you can do even more by listening to the 92,000 Hours other episodes on vulnerability. We have one with Jim Carter in season one and another with me, Annalisa Holcombe, in season three. And finally, you'll do yourself a favor if you watch the famous Brené Brown TED Talk on vulnerability. Really, you can find it so easily. Just Google vulnerability, and look for the videos. You'll find it. It's really one of the best ways you can spend 20 minutes, even if you've watched it before.
Annalisa Holcombe (19:09
I hope you enjoyed this episode and I hope you get a lot out of the questions and the worksheet and the diving in that we're doing here. But please remember, we really do need your responses. I mentioned before that it is really vulnerable for me to talk about this stuff out there by myself and kind of in a vacuum. So if you have something to say, if you have an answer to one of the questions or a reflection that makes some difference, please share it. We'd love to hear from you.
Annalisa Holcombe (19:45
You can call us at (385) 501-7333, or you can email me personally at annalisa@connectioncollaborative.com. I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to hear your responses to some of the questions that we provided here. And I hope that you'll join us next time. Next time we'll have a workshop on identity, really digging in to help you think about your own identity; those areas of yourself that are your given identities, your chosen identities, and what is core to your identity. I look forward to talking to you then, and I hope to hear from you in the meantime.
Annalisa Holcombe (00:53
In the first three seasons of this podcast, we have engaged in deep conversations with individuals we consider to be experts next door. In this season, we're doing something different. We're providing real, how to info about what happens when we really engage these questions. Instead of asking questions of my podcast guests, this time I'm asking you. So, if you're cooking dinner or driving or going on a walk while listening, that's okay. Sometimes we need to multitask. But if you have the space and time, this episode and this whole season is best if you can sit down and engage more directly. Get out a pen and paper, open up a word doc and reflect. Pause the podcast when you need. Go back to something when you want to reflect more, but give yourself this gift.
Annalisa Holcombe (01:54
So, our first episode was on trust, and I mentioned how scary it was for me, as simply putting this out there is deeply vulnerable for me. I had asked for feedback from you, our listeners, and I didn't get a lot. We will try harder this time to get the word out, but I'm really hoping to hear from you, especially because in this episode, our subject is vulnerability and courage. But before we dig into that, I want to make sure we follow up and have some closure on our trust discussion. Did you do the trust work sheet that was provided on our Connection Collaborative blog? How about the trust quotient assessment that can be found at trustsuite.trustedadvisor.com.
Annalisa Holcombe (02:37
One of our listeners wrote back. Thank you so much Stormy, that the reflection on trust really helped her think through the ways that she has differentiated trust with colleagues and coworkers, and trust with her family and personal relationships, and she reflected on what that means to her. For me, I did the trust quotient and I learned that my biggest area of strength is intimacy. No surprise there, here I am talking about trust on a podcast. But what I also learned is I need to work on reliability, sadly also not a surprise to me. I'm a person who takes on too much and I struggle to get it all done timely. Does that sound familiar to any of you type A's out there? This may be something that makes us seem a bit less trustworthy and it's something we could work on.
Annalisa Holcombe (03:30
Again, I'd love to hear from you about what you learned about trust and about yourself in this process. The feedback loop is an important part of our learning and our growth. And it's just more fun when we share with each other. But now we're going to talk about vulnerability and courage, and this is something really important and personal to me. I've been talking about these subjects for nearly 20 years and I have found that it is still very uncomfortable. So the first question I have for you is, when I say let's talk about vulnerability, how does that make you feel? Are you physically uncomfortable? Do you feel defensive? Or are you excited and you want to lean in?
Annalisa Holcombe (04:19
And if I were to say, let's talk about courage, how does that make you feel? Is there a big difference? When we say courage, do you find yourself sitting up a little straighter? What are the differences between your physical and emotional reaction to those two ideas, vulnerability and courage? Now, get curious with yourself. Why do you think there is or isn't a difference for you? Take a minute. This is a place where you could pause the podcast and think about it. Simply sitting with those two big concepts and reflecting on your reaction can tell you a lot about yourself and your own vulnerability and courage. Do you associate vulnerability with weakness, or do you associate it with courage itself?
Annalisa Holcombe (05:10
For example, I've experienced wildly different reactions from people when I talk about these two concepts. While this is a generality, of course, it is worth noting. Over the years, when I told my college students that we were going to talk about vulnerability, in general they leaned in. They were really interested in talking about the different ways that they experienced vulnerability, and they wanted to learn strategies for coping with their own vulnerabilities.
Annalisa Holcombe (05:39
On the other hand, when I told my own faculty members in my leadership PhD program that I wanted to study leader vulnerability, I was met with blank stares. It was as though individuals who were over 50 really struggled with even comprehending the idea that leaders were vulnerable, which of course makes me really curious. As a society, we love to talk about courage and bravery. But really, you can't be brave unless you're overcoming some kind of vulnerability. When we think about the ways that we celebrate courage, we love an underdog story here in America.
Annalisa Holcombe (06:21
I also want to celebrate courage that takes place every day, the type of courage that takes place in those more intimate moments when others may not even realize that you were just courageous. So take a minute and ask yourself, when was the last time that you felt vulnerable? If you struggle to identify that moment, let me phrase it a different way. When was the last time you felt brave? Did you stand up for yourself? Did you speak up in a meeting? Did you run a 5k? Did you overcome an illness? What was it that you did that was brave?
Annalisa Holcombe (07:01
Now let's deconstruct that because there is no bravery, there is no courage without vulnerability. What made that brave moment brave? Because underneath that, that's where you find the vulnerability. Brené Brown defines vulnerability as uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure. Really think about that for a moment. If that is what vulnerability looks like, uncertainty, risk, emotional exposure, then aren't we all walking around with vulnerability sitting on our shoulder all the time?
Annalisa Holcombe (07:41
If you thought about how you've been brave, and your example was speaking up in a meeting, what was the vulnerability? Really, what was it? Was it that maybe you could be wrong? Was it that you didn't belong there? Was it that you may not be as smart as you hoped? Was it that you wouldn't be taken seriously due to your age, gender, or appearance? What was the vulnerability? Where do you feel that soft tenderness that comes along with vulnerability? So really, think about that last time that you felt brave or vulnerable and dig deeper. What was the uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure that you were facing? When you see it and name it, it will be a bit less scary.
Annalisa Holcombe (08:35
I hope you're enjoying this episode. If you would like to dig in and listen more and learn more about this, I encourage you to listen to prior episodes on vulnerability on our 92,000 Hours podcast. I had a great conversation about this with Jim Carter in season one, and I was honored to be interviewed by Shamby Polychronis on the subject of vulnerability in season three. Please take a look. Find those episodes by looking at 92,000 Hours wherever you hear your podcasts.
Annalisa Holcombe (09:22
When I think about vulnerability, for me, right now, vulnerability is pretty clear and easily understood by others when I'm talking about my young daughter's heart condition, but it is less understood by others and feels a little more personal even when I'm talking about the vulnerability I feel when I'm speaking up and I'm the only woman at the table. And especially when I'm unclear if my voice is welcome. Each of those instances, dealing with my daughter's illness, speaking up when I'm unsure of myself, each of those are full of uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure.
Annalisa Holcombe (10:09
What are times that you felt the same way? This is hard stuff, and I encourage you to really settle in and think about it. And while you're at it, I also encourage you to think about the individuals in your life with whom you can talk about this. Brené Brown calls them your square squad. And these are the individuals in your life with whom you can speak honestly, openly, and with real vulnerability. You really only need to have one person who is in your square squad. And honestly, you probably wouldn't have many more than a handful if you're being truly honest with yourself about them.
Annalisa Holcombe (10:46
These are the few people who you know really care about you, whatever happens and without reservation. These are the people who you know have your back and whose constructive criticism and opinions actually truly matter to you. So take a moment, write those names down, physically write those names down. Look at the list. How do you feel? When you think about these people, what are the emotions that wash over you? Over the course of the next few weeks, I really want to encourage you to take the time to reach out to the names you just wrote down and let them know how much their support and understanding means to you. And then let me know. Send an email, leave a voicemail or a note on social media. I would love to hear from you what it felt like to thank these people in your life. How did they react? What was it like for you?
Annalisa Holcombe (11:48
And as you think about those individuals, I'm willing to bet that those individuals didn't suddenly appear on your list. The relationship that you have built with them has grown little by little over time. In our last episode, we talked about trust, and this is where trust is so important to our discussion of vulnerability. This small group, your square squad, is there because a trusting relationship has built up over time little by little. If you think of each small interaction with someone in which they have demonstrated that they treat you with care, respect, and understanding, that container of safety is being built. This can happen in your personal life, but it can also happen professionally.
Annalisa Holcombe (12:33
Each time someone gives you helpful, constructive and kind feedback, each time you are encouraged, each time something that you've done is recognized, especially if it isn't something grand but something important and a little harder to see, that trust container is being built. Over time, these little moments that lead to someone you know you can be vulnerable with, it takes this time and this effort to really build this container of safety, and I can't say enough how precious having this in your life is. Anyone who invests this type of time and care in you is someone I encourage you to invest in as well.
Annalisa Holcombe (13:14
Also, I think it's important to notice that we all need different levels of safety and comfort in order to be vulnerable. For some, it can be built really quickly. And for others, it takes a very long time. And all of that is okay. You can't rush trust or safety or vulnerability. That type of intimacy really needs to build over time.
Annalisa Holcombe (13:40
And finally, it wouldn't be right to talk about vulnerability without also talking about boundaries. Compassionate, vulnerable people can and do have strong boundaries. Having these boundaries is important because it means that you have taken the time to know what is okay and what isn't okay for you in your relationships with others. Think about that. Creating and articulating those boundaries is really one of the kindest things that you can do for yourself, but also for the people around you.
Annalisa Holcombe (14:14
There are people in your life who haven't yet, and some who never will, earn the right to know certain things about you. And that's okay. In fact, it's actually really healthy. So again, ask yourself, what are your healthy boundaries? And maybe it's easier, again, just like we did before, to think about a time in your personal or professional life when you have felt that someone crossed the line and that your boundaries weren't respected. What happened that felt bad or wrong? What boundary was crossed? Had you articulated your boundaries to this person in advance? In fact, did you even know at the time that this was a boundary that you had? Now that you think about that moment, how can you take this knowledge about yourself now and create the language that you need to articulate this boundary in the future?
Annalisa Holcombe (15:13
I think this is really important because a lot of us spend time in our lives being really mad at people for crossing boundaries that we had not even told them were there. So if we take responsibility for our own health and happiness and identify what those boundaries are and communicate them to the people who we work with or interact with or in relationship with, it leads to a much healthier and happier relationship. It is, however, vulnerable to actually say to someone, "This is the boundary I have." But I promise, the more you do it, the easier and more authentic it can be.
Annalisa Holcombe (16:03
The best way to do this is to practice it with someone in your square squad. Let them know that you're trying to figure out what your boundaries are and how to identify when they're being crossed. Ask them for help in doing that. And I encourage you to be the person that can listen to that person in your square squad and give them the same amount of respect and grace.
Annalisa Holcombe (16:29
So as we finish up, I want to remind you, vulnerability isn't a weakness. It is simply the precursor to courage. We are all vulnerable in different ways and at different times, but we are in fact vulnerable. I talked before about different ways that I see vulnerability in myself and how I can recognize it. And when I do take that moment to recognize it, it really does become a little less scary.
Annalisa Holcombe (17:06
When I'm at my most healthy, I can recognize the feeling that I have as vulnerability. I can see it and say, "Yes, I'm uncertain right now. This could be a little risky and I feel a bit exposed emotionally. But hello vulnerability. I see you. You're simply my companion." Vulnerability is there, often whether I like it or not, and I know that I can make it feel a lot less scary when I just acknowledge it, honor its presence, respect its boundaries, and move forward in my life anyway. I hope that some of these exercises can help you do the same.
Annalisa Holcombe (17:53
So now it is time for you to do your homework. First, go back and listen to this again. Throughout this episode, I have asked a lot of questions about vulnerability. We've included those questions and more as a companion to this episode and a self-reflection worksheet. You can find it in our Connection Collaborative blog at connectioncollaborative.com/blog.
Annalisa Holcombe (18:20
Second, you can do even more by listening to the 92,000 Hours other episodes on vulnerability. We have one with Jim Carter in season one and another with me, Annalisa Holcombe, in season three. And finally, you'll do yourself a favor if you watch the famous Brené Brown TED Talk on vulnerability. Really, you can find it so easily. Just Google vulnerability, and look for the videos. You'll find it. It's really one of the best ways you can spend 20 minutes, even if you've watched it before.
Annalisa Holcombe (19:09
I hope you enjoyed this episode and I hope you get a lot out of the questions and the worksheet and the diving in that we're doing here. But please remember, we really do need your responses. I mentioned before that it is really vulnerable for me to talk about this stuff out there by myself and kind of in a vacuum. So if you have something to say, if you have an answer to one of the questions or a reflection that makes some difference, please share it. We'd love to hear from you.
Annalisa Holcombe (19:45
You can call us at (385) 501-7333, or you can email me personally at annalisa@connectioncollaborative.com. I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to hear your responses to some of the questions that we provided here. And I hope that you'll join us next time. Next time we'll have a workshop on identity, really digging in to help you think about your own identity; those areas of yourself that are your given identities, your chosen identities, and what is core to your identity. I look forward to talking to you then, and I hope to hear from you in the meantime.