Ep 6: Vulnerability with Jim Carter
92,000 Hours
Are you ready to approach your life with courage and vulnerability? Our guest, Jim Carter, is a seasoned lawyer and public administrator. He shares his insights and experiences in a riveting discussion on vulnerability, not only in the workplace but in all facets of life.
In this episode, we focus on the softer side of resilience, discussing how the ability to be vulnerable can foster a more authentic and empowering approach to leadership. We explore how generational perceptions of vulnerability in leadership differ and how the misuse of vulnerability can be perceived as a sign of weakness.
Finally, we touch on the role of fear and anger in our national discourse and underline the importance of respect and understanding to foster authentic conversations. Let's delve into the art of meaningful leadership and explore the profound impact of embracing vulnerability and courage in our lives.
Transcript
0:00:01 - Annalisa Holcombe
Did you know that the average human spends 92,000 hours at work during their lifetime? That's more than we spend eating, cleaning, driving, watching TV or even surfing the internet? In fact, work is what we do most. It comes second only to sleeping. Welcome to 92,000 hours, the podcast that believes in the integration of life and work.
I'm your host, Annalisa Holcombe. Before we begin, I wanted to tell you a quick story about why this podcast is so personal to me. I began practicing law at age 26 and learned many valuable lessons, including that I was deeply unhappy at work. Although I was on a path that looked like traditional success, I realized that I needed to quit my job in order to align myself with my passion and purpose. Now I am dedicated to making sure all of our 92,000 hours at work are spent well instead of simply spent. How do we construct a working world that values and accommodates our humanity? How do we construct a life that is not separate from, but fueled by, the purpose we find in our work? In this podcast, we will explore those questions and more. In each episode, I will speak to someone that demonstrates meaning, passion and purpose in their work. Join me in discovering what happens when we bring our whole selves to our work, schools and communities.
This week, I'm joined by Jim Carter. Jim is a lawyer, certified environmental planner and public administrator. He currently serves on the Holiday City Planning Commission and has served as the chair of the Board of the Henry's Fork Foundation. He has also been a long-time mentor in the program that I helped to found. We discussed practicing and leading with vulnerability and, although our conversation was pre-recorded, I chose to air it today in light of Election Day.
Today may be a vulnerable day for many of us, and emotions around the country are running high. In fact, this year has been particularly vulnerable as the COVID-19 pandemic has blurred the professional and the personal. Many of us have converted our homes into offices and we've also begun answering our colleagues and our bosses. How are you questions? More truthfully, jim and I discuss how leading with vulnerability and authenticity can create positive workspaces. So let's begin All right. So I like to start with a question and I gave you a little bit of heads up that this was the question I was going to ask, which is my big, happy question. If you remove any reference to work, school, sports, volunteerism, church activity pretty much all that stuff I just talked about in your bio, right?
If you don't count that what is your greatest accomplishment or what are you the most proud of about yourself as a human being?
0:03:11 - Jim Carter
Something that has become apparent to me is that I have developed an ability to not react, to not overreact in difficult situations and to think about what's going on in the person's mind who's confronting me Like what's going on? How's their day, what have they been doing? Why are they so angry at me? And this just happened a few days ago, which prompted this thought it's really more. I'm really happy that I can do that and it turns out to be really useful. So in my work environment and volunteer things and all that sort of thing, when people are angry, my reaction is not to turn my back or run away, but it's to come forward and say so. Let's talk a little bit about your anger. What are your concerns? So that's.
I'm really proud of that. I have friends who watch and say don't even engage, or I can't help it and I'm happy about it.
0:04:11 - Annalisa Holcombe
So it's like your well-developed sense of empathy.
0:04:16 - Jim Carter
Yes, I mean, I think when I encounter people who are upset, I really think about what is it that they're upset about? And most of the time it boils down. I mean there's irrational craziness, but most of the time it boils down to something legitimate. I mean people have a real reason to be concerned or upset.
0:04:36 - Annalisa Holcombe
All right. So today I have to tell you that I was so happy that you said that you would be willing to take on the subject matter of courage and vulnerability. So you're already. I think just by doing that you're showing courage and vulnerability to have that as our conversation, like the overarching umbrella that we're using as we talk today. So first, thank you for talking about those things. I think it scares people to talk about that.
0:05:08 - Jim Carter
It can be scary.
0:05:10 - Annalisa Holcombe
And so I think, just to start, I'm interested in hearing from you like what do those words mean to you, Courage and vulnerability? What do they mean to you?
0:05:22 - Jim Carter
Thinking about it once, I realize this are going to be the umbrella for our conversation. Courage to me, and maybe to most people, is the bystander who runs into a burning building in the same suburb and afterwards, oh there wasn't anyone who would have done it. That sort of thing, that's sort of one-off People just rise to the occasion and do what they need to do.
But I think that over the long haul it's like this thing I talked about with not reacting when I'm attacked. It's sort of a am I okay, am I comfortable enough in my own skin, I guess I'd say, to let someone come up to me, and this one person attacked me for even being there.
0:06:07 - Annalisa Holcombe
In what way?
0:06:08 - Jim Carter
Well, this is at a public meeting out of town and a person came up to me and said where are you from? And I said I'm from Salt Lake City. Well, what are you doing here? Why do you have anything? Why are you telling us how to live our lives? So, and I was getting from over her shoulder someone's going, you don't want to get into this. She's really angry and you just don't want to get into it, but I was able to engage her. I don't think she was happy when we got finished.
0:06:39 - Annalisa Holcombe
But she was heard.
0:06:40 - Jim Carter
Yeah, she was heard. Yeah, I think that's it. So I'm willing to hear people and I think that others in observing me would say well, that's courageous. It doesn't feel courageous when I'm doing it, it just feels like I'm curious. You know, what is it that got you so wound up?
0:06:58 - Annalisa Holcombe
I love that you are talking about authentic curiosity, yeah.
0:07:04 - Jim Carter
Ah, there is that Like both my parents just loved people big social lives. My mother used to embarrass us by approaching strangers, especially crying children, and comforting them, to the amazement of their parents.
And I just I thought isn't that neat. She found something out. She'd come back to the car. We'd be on a vacation. She'd come back to the car and say well, that family was from someplace and they've never been in heat like this before. So everyone was hot. So I bought everyone Popsicles and I just thought what a great way to be with people. So that, and I find it more often than not enjoyable.
0:07:45 - Jim Carter
I found out something new, I learned something and in the work that I had been doing it's useful. I mean it's a good thing because we're trying to plan and help people talk about their futures and what they want to do.
0:07:59 - Annalisa Holcombe
How do you see that? Related to vulnerability, I think being willing to be seen.
0:08:07 - Jim Carter
This sounds very grandiose and self congratulatory, but it's that is the other thing that went along with it. So these, that sort of courage that I talked about in the vulnerability, really are companions If you're and this is not something I just was born doing or woke up one day and I could all of a sudden do it, but be able to be yelled at, be able to be seen as fallible and wrong and in the wrong place, and what are you trying to do? Also has worked for me, I mean in all kinds of situations.
It's, I think, that what you said earlier, that people just want to be heard. 90% is what they want to be heard Someone to give speeches but most just want to be heard. And if I'm appearing to hear, them, and I do hear them it just dials down all the angst and again others would watch this and go.
You know why do you subject this, yourself to this, and why and I said because this is an interesting person I'm curious about this person, that's so interesting because I think you're getting to the heart of courage and vulnerability.
0:09:22 - Annalisa Holcombe
I mean, like most of us don't, are so unwilling to be the person in front of other people, looking like we don't have the answers, or being willing to have someone yell at us and still maintain curiosity, instead of just being defensive or wanting to win.
0:09:44 - Jim Carter
There's something just popped in my head and that's someone who was a great mentor to me said there are. There's always two ways, two kinds of people, two ways to do things. That's really, but there are really two ways to approach a situation that is not known to you, and one is the expert's mind, which is to walk into the room going I have all the answers I'm in charge reminds me of somebody in public. I these days I can do everything I can fix everything.
0:10:13 - Jim Carter
And then there's the student's mind, which is I'm here, I don't know what I need to know, and I'm here to find out what it is I need to know. I think that, given my experience.
0:10:25 - Jim Carter
If you will teach me what I need to know, I can offer some assistance to you, and that's. I found that to be absolutely true. If you walk into a room, this woman she was a woman that confronted me assumed that I was presenting myself as an expert with all the answers, and that was part of her anger. She said you're here to tell us what to do. And I said no, I'm here to listen to what you want to do and then offer some ideas and see if any of those are appealing to you. And she kind of took a deep breath and went that's odd.
I've never dealt with consultants who act like that.
0:11:00 - Annalisa Holcombe
So that says something about us too, like just our society in general maybe, but that's a I think that it's surprising that that's the case.
0:11:11 - Jim Carter
I really, the people I admire are 100% who they are, all the time and while I need to be careful. Sometimes you need to put on a little bit of a mask to sort of power through something Difficult public hearings. Yeah.
0:11:27 - Jim Carter
If you're chairing a difficult public hearing, you can't just say, oh, I feel sorry for everyone and let's have a group hug.
0:11:33 - Annalisa Holcombe
You need to get through. There's different roles, that's right. So there are roles to play.
0:11:38 - Jim Carter
But I admire that about people and I sort of adopted that and it's working.
0:11:43 - Annalisa Holcombe
Awesome. So I want to talk about. Well, you know that I'm a big giant fan of Bernay Brown this is not a surprise to you, oh no. And she? So she has a definition of vulnerability, which is she defines vulnerability as uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure. So does that definition resonate with you? It does.
0:12:12 - Jim Carter
The thing and maybe this is just part of getting older and having had experiences, the risk part diminishes. For me it has diminished a lot. So risk is, what could go wrong here. What's the downside? Yeah. If this went terribly wrong, would anyone die? No, would people get their feelings hurt Possibly. So the risk part to me is not? Is not still a big component of being vulnerable.
0:12:44 - Jim Carter
Uncertainty definitely is, but I find that interesting. I wonder where this is going. So it's the curiosity Do you put that to work?
0:12:56 - Annalisa Holcombe
in your like in making decisions for yourself, Not just like when you're approaching it from a place of like a work situation or even a work situation that you might not have comfort. I mean, you've had this long career, so right now you might be in a position where it's okay whichever way it goes at work. But have you had the uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure be present for you in one of your you know, in your prior jobs where you've had to really think about those things as your or a lot on purpose thinking about them, but maybe feel them in your gut as you're making decisions.
0:13:32 - Jim Carter
Yes, this is helpful. The first job I had in which other people were really relying on me was being city attorney in Park City. And I had never been a city attorney and I had only been out of law school five or six years and the city was really going through a lot of turmoil and it was very active politically, so their meetings were very animated and there was a lot going on and that scared me initially, actually that I talked to people who had been in similar situations saying I just couldn't do it.
It was just too upsetting and visceral and made me sick. And initially it was kind of that, but it was so exciting to be around people who were that passionate about things and that excited and committed that that just sort of dissipated, I think, and I just grew to be more comfortable in what others would say well, that's really risky. You could get fired.
0:14:41 - Jim Carter
You get a new mayor, you could get fired. All these things could happen.
0:14:44 - Annalisa Holcombe
Yeah, you took a job that mayors could do. It was a political appointee. Yeah.
0:14:47 - Jim Carter
And if they decided I didn't know what I was doing, which was a very high risk? Being as young and inexperienced as I was and I just thought well, I don't know, it's like. I guess I can live with the downside. I could live with as bad as I could get because I just can't imagine it getting so bad, I couldn't go over that, so that's work, relationships.
0:15:13 - Annalisa Holcombe
Yeah.
0:15:14 - Jim Carter
It was hard to. I have had a relationship that did not work out in the long term and it was. Looking back I can see that it was a lack of authenticity on my part. There was a big contributor.
I was not able to ask for what I wanted, not able to say no, not able to assert myself, and that gave a false impression to my then partner that everything was clear, everything was fine, and so I think, when I reached a breaking point, everyone was surprised, and so I had a there's a good object lesson in the downside, if you will of not being authentic so those taken together make it easier for me to not worry about how I'm being perceived and just say here's how I see this or here's what I'd like.
0:16:09 - Annalisa Holcombe
Because over time, that's led to the best. Yes, it has it results.
0:16:14 - Jim Carter
Continuously. Even difficult situations resolve themselves sooner or later.
0:16:20 - Annalisa Holcombe
So I want to talk a little bit because I thought about this in advance of the idea. When we say the word vulnerability, it has such strange reactions from people, right and I. So I have noticed this and maybe I'm wrong, so you tell me if you have. When I've talked about the idea of vulnerability, and particularly the idea of vulnerability and leaders, or maybe when I'm talking about courage and vulnerability, I get I almost see a generational divide, Like when I talk to people my age or older and I've told them I'm really interested in talking about leaders and vulnerability and they go what Leaders aren't vulnerable?
Why would you do that? Like they? It's like they can't wrap their heads around it. They can, if I'm saying courage and leadership, but vulnerability and leadership, they can't get their heads around. Not, and I'm generalizing, but it's surprised me when I talk to younger people, people younger than me, about vulnerability, it's like they are drawn to it, they want to talk about it and in more ways than the older people they seem to be, they just acknowledge that it's there and I don't know if I have you seen it.
0:17:47 - Jim Carter
Yes, I think, and since I'm older than you are, I was modeling myself. What does a man?
0:17:55 - Jim Carter
look like, act like, talk like on my father. He was a terrific guy, loving father, husband and all those things, and he was definitely a leader, but he led in a I can't think of a better word than he was sort of a soft leader. He would say I think this is a good idea, what do you guys think? And then he would lead his work group to where they needed to go?
0:18:21 - Jim Carter
On occasion he would have to take control and be the you know, the field commander and say this is what's got to happen. But that was not his mode of operation and he moved up through his company really well. He had a terrific career with a very soft approach rather than trying to be a command control sort of leader, and I think his vulnerability and his willingness to be just a guy who happened to be a really smart guy and also happened to be in charge of a big, expensive pipeline.
That he didn't see himself as those things. He saw himself as a guy who was we're all working on this thing together and he didn't hang out much with the vice presidents, and then he liked to go fishing with the people who ran the compressor stations and so he just saw himself as a regular person and I think people just reacted to that, so that. But I think that's a generational thing and I think that that level of vulnerability was very rare in my father's generation. And, I think, having modeled, myself.
0:19:28 - Jim Carter
How do you do this man thing based on my father, who was born in 1920, carried over in my early adulthood to well. He succeeded with this soft thing. But I can see and I was in the military, so I have experience with command control. It just never worked for me and I think that I couldn't pull it off. How's that? And anytime I try to lie I turn bright red. And so I would if I stood up there and acted like I knew everything and you guys should do it, or there would be consequences. I can't pull it off, it just won't work.
0:20:05 - Jim Carter
They're going no, that's not true so as I progressed in my career. I found that I lead and I had a position in which the expectation was that I'd be much more directive and ultimately that didn't work out. The person in charge, which was me, felt that a much more directorial style was more appropriate for the situation.
0:20:34 - Annalisa Holcombe
Do you think they were right?
0:20:38 - Jim Carter
It's hard to know. I think if there's misbehavior, then you need to say this is misbehavior and it's got to stop so. Doing performance evaluations can be challenging for me because delivering the bad news, but I realized that it's important. I'm currently working in a situation where it's a terrific team and there is none of that. So it's easy to be just a team member, but I do think it depends on the situation I found. I'm going on and on that early in my career, I thought well, I want to progress and have progressively more responsible jobs and more money and all those sorts of things.
0:21:18 - Jim Carter
And then I realized I'd be better off if I just picked things that I would be good at and where the leadership or the position of responsibility was a more soft, a softer approach would work and for me that's been in teams and even pretty large teams. It's stepping away from whatever you've dreamed up about what other people?
0:21:41 - Jim Carter
expect you to do or should do, or oh. You should have taken that promotion, even if you didn't like it and tough you know. Show them you could do it. So I think that the courage to be able to make your own choices knowing that there are external pressures that are pushing you in one direction or another. I guess that is a courage.
0:22:10 - Annalisa Holcombe
If this conversation has caught your attention and you want to join in on conversations like this, check out our website at ConnectionCollaborativecom. Welcome back. You're listening to 92,000 hours. Let's jump back into our conversation with Jim Carter. You brought this up a little bit, but I think it's important that when we're talking about courage, and particularly actually when we're talking about vulnerability, that we also talk about, like, the dark sides of those things, that sometimes it's not the right time to be courageous and sometimes it's not. It's inappropriate to be vulnerable, and I was reading this article the other day about people quote performing vulnerability and I thought that was interesting, like it was a whole article about behaving as if you're vulnerable or doing things like oversharing inappropriately or, you know, like whatever that that you think is going to well, what it's inauthentic and it's not going to actually connect you. It's going to make you disconnected, I think it's a species, it's the other end of the same spectrum, that being defensive is on and being remote.
0:23:48 - Jim Carter
It's what you're really doing, I think what's happening there is that person has chosen a different technique to protect their actual vulnerability by disclosing or oversharing.
0:24:00 - Annalisa Holcombe
And I think I think that's really important Are we fishing for pity? I mean, are we really?
0:24:05 - Jim Carter
fishing. When somebody tells me something difficult, I think everyone can tell whether you're hearing this because that person would like you to hear them and understand and empathize, or they're just telling you. This is sort of to prove something. Like oh look how vulnerable I am, or look how generous.
0:24:24 - Annalisa Holcombe
I am or look.
0:24:25 - Jim Carter
It's not coming from a place of sincerity.
0:24:27 - Annalisa Holcombe
It's performance. I think that can happen.
0:24:29 - Jim Carter
Yeah. Now I don't think that I mean in my own life.
0:24:33 - Annalisa Holcombe
I haven't experienced that a lot, but I could see that it happened, but it's dangerous to real relationships.
0:24:41 - Jim Carter
It is. I think it puts the receiver kind of back on their heels going. Well, now do I have to cook up or think of something that's on a par with what I'm hearing in order to stay connected.
0:24:55 - Annalisa Holcombe
I think that's totally fair. It goes to a strange place. I think, yeah, I have been in situations in which I have shared something very personal and I've had in response, people either connect with me or say, wait a minute, I don't have anything that big to talk about. And I think, oh, my goodness, that's not what this was.
0:25:19 - Jim Carter
This just popped into my head. This circles back to how we started in courage. I think people may say why don't have anything to be vulnerable about, I don't have any dramatic, traumatic thing and so that courage is running into a building you know, a burning building but it is also behaving authentically and I think that vulnerability is kind of the same, I agree. It's I can be really emotive and sort of have I need to share this with you to an extreme.
0:25:56 - Annalisa Holcombe
Right.
0:25:58 - Jim Carter
Or be vulnerable when it's appropriate.
0:26:01 - Annalisa Holcombe
I maybe I have more time on my hands, but I'm thinking a lot about our society right now and it's just a question I wanted to ask you is do you think that there's room for courage and vulnerability in our national discourse?
0:26:14 - Jim Carter
I do.
0:26:15 - Annalisa Holcombe
I absolutely do. Tell me about that.
0:26:17 - Jim Carter
I mean, I think, that all of this anger? I think part of the problem is it's being stoked, but I think all this anger flows from fear that somehow something bad is happening to me or it's going to happen, and I am trying to be fairly neutral and just looking at this from the big picture. And so everyone's making all their choices based on fear. We talked about that Terrible place to make all your choices Grizzly, bear good one Upside down under a boat. Good one, that's a good one.
0:26:52 - Jim Carter
I mean, there are useful, reasonable places for people to have fear. But it seems to me all of the public discourse and all of the choices and all the actions, almost all of them, are coming from a place of fear, and I think that's awful.
0:27:06 - Annalisa Holcombe
You have experience dealing with that in terms of like in your planning work I mean bringing people together who might be from different sides or in your legal work. It seems like those things often feel from the outside as zero sum or somebody wins and somebody loses.
0:27:29 - Jim Carter
That's precisely it If they win, I lose. That's the animating and it's what I've learned through work and those really difficult public hearings and so forth is making it clear to even people who are very angry and not happy about where things are going to say you need to win, Maybe not with outcome, but you need to win in having your voice heard and considered in the decision making that is going to happen in the future and that I think, fair-minded people can walk away and say well, I'm still not happy.
In fact I'm a little bit pissed, but I'm not so furious that I can't see anything but red, and I'm going to make all my choices based on being furious and fearful Collegiality is gone. Mutual respect seems to be gone. Just acknowledging well that's a good point. I understand why you hold that position or feel that way. I don't feel that way, and there was room for agreeable disagreement and it seems to me that that is all gone, because it's either you hate first or die. It's that bad.
0:28:41 - Annalisa Holcombe
Is there, from your perspective, a way out of it? You're talking to our listeners today. What would you tell them about?
0:28:48 - Jim Carter
how to handle it, how to take a deep breath, count to 10, and seek out, look at the commonalities. I mean so. Do your kids play soccer? Are you? Do you volunteer at your church or volunteer at the community center to look for the human things that we all do that are common?
0:29:11 - Annalisa Holcombe
Yes, I commute to work and just it's sort of it's it's yes, I worry about my medical bills or whatever.
0:29:18 - Jim Carter
Yeah, it's so cliche to say well, we just need to see common ground. Well yeah, but what?
0:29:22 - Jim Carter
does that look like it's? I don't think we're ready to have common ground on choices about moving forward. I think we need to reestablish common ground on we are all in this together. We're all kind of doing the same stuff. We're dealing with healthcare and all the stuff. And if we remember that then we?
0:29:41 - Jim Carter
I think we see ourselves as needing to work together on those things, Even if we can't agree about immigration. But, set that aside for a minute. That's just too too hard. And let's agree on the PTA it isn't that hard work to just set that aside and not go to a meeting and yell, but go to a meeting and listen and think about it.
0:30:03 - Annalisa Holcombe
And then say here's what I want to say. I think it's really hard because we do that all the time. We let our anger get the best of us in our discourse regardless, like because it feels so visceral. Can I?
0:30:17 - Annalisa Holcombe
ask a question. Sure, Just an FYI before we continue. The new voice you just heard is Bree. She's our producer and she's about to ask an important question.
0:30:28 - Jim Carter
This is kind of a hard ball, but I wanted to ask it anyway. How do you think that your privilege and your identity plays a role in that? Because in some cases certain people have the privilege to be able to put things aside, while other people can't. Immigration for them could be just a topical thing that doesn't affect you very much, while on another person that is their identity. They aren't immigrating or whatever. That is a great question. And.
0:30:59 - Jim Carter
I'll just say from my perspective, I think immigration is the most important thing to wrestle with, the whole racial privilege, the lack of privilege in immigration and how we treat each other as a diverse society, I think is at the core and the most important thing that we have to come to grips with. I think I know the answer, but I think a number of people have been whipped into a frenzy of fear and they are just incapable, at least at this point, of rational thought. I'll just say that, and so this may be one of those situations like where the bear fears the right thing to do. This may be one of those situations where fighting back hard is the right thing to do and peace in Kumbaya comes later. But in terms of healing.
0:31:47 - Jim Carter
I think there are battles now that need to be won, because I think we are headed in such a bad direction as a country. So I think this is one of those times that you say we got to fight and we got to win. That's not going to make everyone happy because it's a battle, but I think that's the right thing to do now.
0:32:08 - Annalisa Holcombe
What is the role, then, of people like you or people like me, who may not be struggling ourselves with that identity? However, what is our responsibility in the face of almost a struggle for the soul of our society?
0:32:35 - Jim Carter
What's our role? It's, I'm hoping and believing, that this is going to play itself out on the political stage rather than in the streets, which even then would lead to the political stage.
0:32:51 - Annalisa Holcombe
I just want to ask you this. That's kind of out of the blue, but, as you know, I'm really personally very passionate about the roles of mentors in our lives and I am interested in hearing from you about if you've had any particular mentor that was important to you, and what did you learn from them.
0:33:09 - Jim Carter
My curiosity about people leads me to learn something from people just from a five minute encounter, I mean. I one of the delightful people.
0:33:19 - Jim Carter
I sat down on this project was a farmer whose last name is Rick's, whose family opened Rick's College because they were so committed to education. Delightful guy. I learned a ton from him. We just almost couldn't stop talking.
We are totally coming from different spheres in a variety of ways, and I think I feel as though he mentored me in a little way because I let it happen. I wasn't saying, well, I need you to mentor me. But in terms of a longer term relationship, I think Barry Quinn at Westminster College mentored me in a sort of stern way, but I mean, I really feel as though he was not ordering me around, but he was showing me a better way. Here's some things. Here's some ways that you could get what you want to do, which is ski all the time and still get good grades in biology. And I said that I need a middle path. I need that that will work. And he knew he said, if you just got a quit skiing during the week, that wasn't going to work. So he was a mentor and that was just for a semester, a couple of semesters.
Everyone will say if you have a good childhood, everyone will say your parent. I talked already about my father and mother, who were just these giving, loving, wonderful people. I just sort of modeled myself after them. The city manager of Park City, arlene Loble, who just passed away recently, coached me and mentored me as the new young city attorney. I said I've never prosecuted anybody. Is that what city attorneys do so? As she was terrific, and there were other people in the Park City community that were great as I was learning the ropes.
0:35:09 - Annalisa Holcombe
What do you see as a common thread with all of these people? Is there one.
0:35:15 - Jim Carter
Yes, I think it's not entirely selflessness. I think mentoring is OK. We're working together. Let me coach you, Let me help you. I know coach you are mentoring a different way, so there's a little bit of self-interest, but it's the opposite of the cutthroat claw your way to the top sort of working environment.
0:35:36 - Annalisa Holcombe
All right, so we're getting to the end.
As we close, I'm going to go back to the theme of the podcast, which is the whole we spend, and I have to tell you this I call it 92,000 hours because that's the amount of time an average person spends, but besides sleeping, it's the next thing we do. The most in our lives is we work, and it's by far longer than the times we spend with our families or socializing or anything else. So I'm interested in what makes what you do worth that investment, because our time is limited. It's the most important resource we have. So what do?
0:36:19 - Jim Carter
you, there are. First, my father sat me down after a summer of being a welder's helper and I wasn't sure I wanted to go to college. It was after my first disaster cheer, so you don't need to go to college. He said, however, you're going to work for a long time and you need to find something that you enjoy and you think is fulfilling and worth doing, or you're going to be miserable.
0:36:40 - Annalisa Holcombe
Thanks, Jim, you're the best. Thanks, Thanks, thanks, I'll be right back, thanks.
My sincerest thanks to Jim for his vulnerability and thoughtfulness. If you want to learn more about Jim and his work, connect with him on LinkedIn. Next week I will be joined by Sylvia Castro-Bennett. Sylvia is the executive director of the Swazo Business Center, a business resource for the Latino, hispanic and other underserved communities. She also serves on the Utah governor's COVID-19 economic task force and the multicultural task force. She will be speaking about priorities and investing time in the things we most care about.
Join us Music playing] as always. Thank you for listening to 92,000 Hours. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a review. We really appreciate your support. If you're interested in integrating the personal and professional through authentic conversation, just like you heard on our episode today, please check out our work at Connection Collaborative. You can find us at connectioncollaborative.com or send me an email at annalisa@connectioncollaborative.com. Thank you and see you next week on 92,000 Hours. Music playing]. 92,000 Hours is made possible by Connection Collaborative. This episode was produced and edited by Brianna Steggell. Lexie Banks is our marketing director and I'm your host, Annalisa Holcombe.
0:00:01 - Annalisa Holcombe
Did you know that the average human spends 92,000 hours at work during their lifetime? That's more than we spend eating, cleaning, driving, watching TV or even surfing the internet? In fact, work is what we do most. It comes second only to sleeping. Welcome to 92,000 hours, the podcast that believes in the integration of life and work.
I'm your host, Annalisa Holcombe. Before we begin, I wanted to tell you a quick story about why this podcast is so personal to me. I began practicing law at age 26 and learned many valuable lessons, including that I was deeply unhappy at work. Although I was on a path that looked like traditional success, I realized that I needed to quit my job in order to align myself with my passion and purpose. Now I am dedicated to making sure all of our 92,000 hours at work are spent well instead of simply spent. How do we construct a working world that values and accommodates our humanity? How do we construct a life that is not separate from, but fueled by, the purpose we find in our work? In this podcast, we will explore those questions and more. In each episode, I will speak to someone that demonstrates meaning, passion and purpose in their work. Join me in discovering what happens when we bring our whole selves to our work, schools and communities.
This week, I'm joined by Jim Carter. Jim is a lawyer, certified environmental planner and public administrator. He currently serves on the Holiday City Planning Commission and has served as the chair of the Board of the Henry's Fork Foundation. He has also been a long-time mentor in the program that I helped to found. We discussed practicing and leading with vulnerability and, although our conversation was pre-recorded, I chose to air it today in light of Election Day.
Today may be a vulnerable day for many of us, and emotions around the country are running high. In fact, this year has been particularly vulnerable as the COVID-19 pandemic has blurred the professional and the personal. Many of us have converted our homes into offices and we've also begun answering our colleagues and our bosses. How are you questions? More truthfully, jim and I discuss how leading with vulnerability and authenticity can create positive workspaces. So let's begin All right. So I like to start with a question and I gave you a little bit of heads up that this was the question I was going to ask, which is my big, happy question. If you remove any reference to work, school, sports, volunteerism, church activity pretty much all that stuff I just talked about in your bio, right?
If you don't count that what is your greatest accomplishment or what are you the most proud of about yourself as a human being?
0:03:11 - Jim Carter
Something that has become apparent to me is that I have developed an ability to not react, to not overreact in difficult situations and to think about what's going on in the person's mind who's confronting me Like what's going on? How's their day, what have they been doing? Why are they so angry at me? And this just happened a few days ago, which prompted this thought it's really more. I'm really happy that I can do that and it turns out to be really useful. So in my work environment and volunteer things and all that sort of thing, when people are angry, my reaction is not to turn my back or run away, but it's to come forward and say so. Let's talk a little bit about your anger. What are your concerns? So that's.
I'm really proud of that. I have friends who watch and say don't even engage, or I can't help it and I'm happy about it.
0:04:11 - Annalisa Holcombe
So it's like your well-developed sense of empathy.
0:04:16 - Jim Carter
Yes, I mean, I think when I encounter people who are upset, I really think about what is it that they're upset about? And most of the time it boils down. I mean there's irrational craziness, but most of the time it boils down to something legitimate. I mean people have a real reason to be concerned or upset.
0:04:36 - Annalisa Holcombe
All right. So today I have to tell you that I was so happy that you said that you would be willing to take on the subject matter of courage and vulnerability. So you're already. I think just by doing that you're showing courage and vulnerability to have that as our conversation, like the overarching umbrella that we're using as we talk today. So first, thank you for talking about those things. I think it scares people to talk about that.
0:05:08 - Jim Carter
It can be scary.
0:05:10 - Annalisa Holcombe
And so I think, just to start, I'm interested in hearing from you like what do those words mean to you, Courage and vulnerability? What do they mean to you?
0:05:22 - Jim Carter
Thinking about it once, I realize this are going to be the umbrella for our conversation. Courage to me, and maybe to most people, is the bystander who runs into a burning building in the same suburb and afterwards, oh there wasn't anyone who would have done it. That sort of thing, that's sort of one-off People just rise to the occasion and do what they need to do.
But I think that over the long haul it's like this thing I talked about with not reacting when I'm attacked. It's sort of a am I okay, am I comfortable enough in my own skin, I guess I'd say, to let someone come up to me, and this one person attacked me for even being there.
0:06:07 - Annalisa Holcombe
In what way?
0:06:08 - Jim Carter
Well, this is at a public meeting out of town and a person came up to me and said where are you from? And I said I'm from Salt Lake City. Well, what are you doing here? Why do you have anything? Why are you telling us how to live our lives? So, and I was getting from over her shoulder someone's going, you don't want to get into this. She's really angry and you just don't want to get into it, but I was able to engage her. I don't think she was happy when we got finished.
0:06:39 - Annalisa Holcombe
But she was heard.
0:06:40 - Jim Carter
Yeah, she was heard. Yeah, I think that's it. So I'm willing to hear people and I think that others in observing me would say well, that's courageous. It doesn't feel courageous when I'm doing it, it just feels like I'm curious. You know, what is it that got you so wound up?
0:06:58 - Annalisa Holcombe
I love that you are talking about authentic curiosity, yeah.
0:07:04 - Jim Carter
Ah, there is that Like both my parents just loved people big social lives. My mother used to embarrass us by approaching strangers, especially crying children, and comforting them, to the amazement of their parents.
And I just I thought isn't that neat. She found something out. She'd come back to the car. We'd be on a vacation. She'd come back to the car and say well, that family was from someplace and they've never been in heat like this before. So everyone was hot. So I bought everyone Popsicles and I just thought what a great way to be with people. So that, and I find it more often than not enjoyable.
0:07:45 - Jim Carter
I found out something new, I learned something and in the work that I had been doing it's useful. I mean it's a good thing because we're trying to plan and help people talk about their futures and what they want to do.
0:07:59 - Annalisa Holcombe
How do you see that? Related to vulnerability, I think being willing to be seen.
0:08:07 - Jim Carter
This sounds very grandiose and self congratulatory, but it's that is the other thing that went along with it. So these, that sort of courage that I talked about in the vulnerability, really are companions If you're and this is not something I just was born doing or woke up one day and I could all of a sudden do it, but be able to be yelled at, be able to be seen as fallible and wrong and in the wrong place, and what are you trying to do? Also has worked for me, I mean in all kinds of situations.
It's, I think, that what you said earlier, that people just want to be heard. 90% is what they want to be heard Someone to give speeches but most just want to be heard. And if I'm appearing to hear, them, and I do hear them it just dials down all the angst and again others would watch this and go.
You know why do you subject this, yourself to this, and why and I said because this is an interesting person I'm curious about this person, that's so interesting because I think you're getting to the heart of courage and vulnerability.
0:09:22 - Annalisa Holcombe
I mean, like most of us don't, are so unwilling to be the person in front of other people, looking like we don't have the answers, or being willing to have someone yell at us and still maintain curiosity, instead of just being defensive or wanting to win.
0:09:44 - Jim Carter
There's something just popped in my head and that's someone who was a great mentor to me said there are. There's always two ways, two kinds of people, two ways to do things. That's really, but there are really two ways to approach a situation that is not known to you, and one is the expert's mind, which is to walk into the room going I have all the answers I'm in charge reminds me of somebody in public. I these days I can do everything I can fix everything.
0:10:13 - Jim Carter
And then there's the student's mind, which is I'm here, I don't know what I need to know, and I'm here to find out what it is I need to know. I think that, given my experience.
0:10:25 - Jim Carter
If you will teach me what I need to know, I can offer some assistance to you, and that's. I found that to be absolutely true. If you walk into a room, this woman she was a woman that confronted me assumed that I was presenting myself as an expert with all the answers, and that was part of her anger. She said you're here to tell us what to do. And I said no, I'm here to listen to what you want to do and then offer some ideas and see if any of those are appealing to you. And she kind of took a deep breath and went that's odd.
I've never dealt with consultants who act like that.
0:11:00 - Annalisa Holcombe
So that says something about us too, like just our society in general maybe, but that's a I think that it's surprising that that's the case.
0:11:11 - Jim Carter
I really, the people I admire are 100% who they are, all the time and while I need to be careful. Sometimes you need to put on a little bit of a mask to sort of power through something Difficult public hearings. Yeah.
0:11:27 - Jim Carter
If you're chairing a difficult public hearing, you can't just say, oh, I feel sorry for everyone and let's have a group hug.
0:11:33 - Annalisa Holcombe
You need to get through. There's different roles, that's right. So there are roles to play.
0:11:38 - Jim Carter
But I admire that about people and I sort of adopted that and it's working.
0:11:43 - Annalisa Holcombe
Awesome. So I want to talk about. Well, you know that I'm a big giant fan of Bernay Brown this is not a surprise to you, oh no. And she? So she has a definition of vulnerability, which is she defines vulnerability as uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure. So does that definition resonate with you? It does.
0:12:12 - Jim Carter
The thing and maybe this is just part of getting older and having had experiences, the risk part diminishes. For me it has diminished a lot. So risk is, what could go wrong here. What's the downside? Yeah. If this went terribly wrong, would anyone die? No, would people get their feelings hurt Possibly. So the risk part to me is not? Is not still a big component of being vulnerable.
0:12:44 - Jim Carter
Uncertainty definitely is, but I find that interesting. I wonder where this is going. So it's the curiosity Do you put that to work?
0:12:56 - Annalisa Holcombe
in your like in making decisions for yourself, Not just like when you're approaching it from a place of like a work situation or even a work situation that you might not have comfort. I mean, you've had this long career, so right now you might be in a position where it's okay whichever way it goes at work. But have you had the uncertainty, risk and emotional exposure be present for you in one of your you know, in your prior jobs where you've had to really think about those things as your or a lot on purpose thinking about them, but maybe feel them in your gut as you're making decisions.
0:13:32 - Jim Carter
Yes, this is helpful. The first job I had in which other people were really relying on me was being city attorney in Park City. And I had never been a city attorney and I had only been out of law school five or six years and the city was really going through a lot of turmoil and it was very active politically, so their meetings were very animated and there was a lot going on and that scared me initially, actually that I talked to people who had been in similar situations saying I just couldn't do it.
It was just too upsetting and visceral and made me sick. And initially it was kind of that, but it was so exciting to be around people who were that passionate about things and that excited and committed that that just sort of dissipated, I think, and I just grew to be more comfortable in what others would say well, that's really risky. You could get fired.
0:14:41 - Jim Carter
You get a new mayor, you could get fired. All these things could happen.
0:14:44 - Annalisa Holcombe
Yeah, you took a job that mayors could do. It was a political appointee. Yeah.
0:14:47 - Jim Carter
And if they decided I didn't know what I was doing, which was a very high risk? Being as young and inexperienced as I was and I just thought well, I don't know, it's like. I guess I can live with the downside. I could live with as bad as I could get because I just can't imagine it getting so bad, I couldn't go over that, so that's work, relationships.
0:15:13 - Annalisa Holcombe
Yeah.
0:15:14 - Jim Carter
It was hard to. I have had a relationship that did not work out in the long term and it was. Looking back I can see that it was a lack of authenticity on my part. There was a big contributor.
I was not able to ask for what I wanted, not able to say no, not able to assert myself, and that gave a false impression to my then partner that everything was clear, everything was fine, and so I think, when I reached a breaking point, everyone was surprised, and so I had a there's a good object lesson in the downside, if you will of not being authentic so those taken together make it easier for me to not worry about how I'm being perceived and just say here's how I see this or here's what I'd like.
0:16:09 - Annalisa Holcombe
Because over time, that's led to the best. Yes, it has it results.
0:16:14 - Jim Carter
Continuously. Even difficult situations resolve themselves sooner or later.
0:16:20 - Annalisa Holcombe
So I want to talk a little bit because I thought about this in advance of the idea. When we say the word vulnerability, it has such strange reactions from people, right and I. So I have noticed this and maybe I'm wrong, so you tell me if you have. When I've talked about the idea of vulnerability, and particularly the idea of vulnerability and leaders, or maybe when I'm talking about courage and vulnerability, I get I almost see a generational divide, Like when I talk to people my age or older and I've told them I'm really interested in talking about leaders and vulnerability and they go what Leaders aren't vulnerable?
Why would you do that? Like they? It's like they can't wrap their heads around it. They can, if I'm saying courage and leadership, but vulnerability and leadership, they can't get their heads around. Not, and I'm generalizing, but it's surprised me when I talk to younger people, people younger than me, about vulnerability, it's like they are drawn to it, they want to talk about it and in more ways than the older people they seem to be, they just acknowledge that it's there and I don't know if I have you seen it.
0:17:47 - Jim Carter
Yes, I think, and since I'm older than you are, I was modeling myself. What does a man?
0:17:55 - Jim Carter
look like, act like, talk like on my father. He was a terrific guy, loving father, husband and all those things, and he was definitely a leader, but he led in a I can't think of a better word than he was sort of a soft leader. He would say I think this is a good idea, what do you guys think? And then he would lead his work group to where they needed to go?
0:18:21 - Jim Carter
On occasion he would have to take control and be the you know, the field commander and say this is what's got to happen. But that was not his mode of operation and he moved up through his company really well. He had a terrific career with a very soft approach rather than trying to be a command control sort of leader, and I think his vulnerability and his willingness to be just a guy who happened to be a really smart guy and also happened to be in charge of a big, expensive pipeline.
That he didn't see himself as those things. He saw himself as a guy who was we're all working on this thing together and he didn't hang out much with the vice presidents, and then he liked to go fishing with the people who ran the compressor stations and so he just saw himself as a regular person and I think people just reacted to that, so that. But I think that's a generational thing and I think that that level of vulnerability was very rare in my father's generation. And, I think, having modeled, myself.
0:19:28 - Jim Carter
How do you do this man thing based on my father, who was born in 1920, carried over in my early adulthood to well. He succeeded with this soft thing. But I can see and I was in the military, so I have experience with command control. It just never worked for me and I think that I couldn't pull it off. How's that? And anytime I try to lie I turn bright red. And so I would if I stood up there and acted like I knew everything and you guys should do it, or there would be consequences. I can't pull it off, it just won't work.
0:20:05 - Jim Carter
They're going no, that's not true so as I progressed in my career. I found that I lead and I had a position in which the expectation was that I'd be much more directive and ultimately that didn't work out. The person in charge, which was me, felt that a much more directorial style was more appropriate for the situation.
0:20:34 - Annalisa Holcombe
Do you think they were right?
0:20:38 - Jim Carter
It's hard to know. I think if there's misbehavior, then you need to say this is misbehavior and it's got to stop so. Doing performance evaluations can be challenging for me because delivering the bad news, but I realized that it's important. I'm currently working in a situation where it's a terrific team and there is none of that. So it's easy to be just a team member, but I do think it depends on the situation I found. I'm going on and on that early in my career, I thought well, I want to progress and have progressively more responsible jobs and more money and all those sorts of things.
0:21:18 - Jim Carter
And then I realized I'd be better off if I just picked things that I would be good at and where the leadership or the position of responsibility was a more soft, a softer approach would work and for me that's been in teams and even pretty large teams. It's stepping away from whatever you've dreamed up about what other people?
0:21:41 - Jim Carter
expect you to do or should do, or oh. You should have taken that promotion, even if you didn't like it and tough you know. Show them you could do it. So I think that the courage to be able to make your own choices knowing that there are external pressures that are pushing you in one direction or another. I guess that is a courage.
0:22:10 - Annalisa Holcombe
If this conversation has caught your attention and you want to join in on conversations like this, check out our website at ConnectionCollaborativecom. Welcome back. You're listening to 92,000 hours. Let's jump back into our conversation with Jim Carter. You brought this up a little bit, but I think it's important that when we're talking about courage, and particularly actually when we're talking about vulnerability, that we also talk about, like, the dark sides of those things, that sometimes it's not the right time to be courageous and sometimes it's not. It's inappropriate to be vulnerable, and I was reading this article the other day about people quote performing vulnerability and I thought that was interesting, like it was a whole article about behaving as if you're vulnerable or doing things like oversharing inappropriately or, you know, like whatever that that you think is going to well, what it's inauthentic and it's not going to actually connect you. It's going to make you disconnected, I think it's a species, it's the other end of the same spectrum, that being defensive is on and being remote.
0:23:48 - Jim Carter
It's what you're really doing, I think what's happening there is that person has chosen a different technique to protect their actual vulnerability by disclosing or oversharing.
0:24:00 - Annalisa Holcombe
And I think I think that's really important Are we fishing for pity? I mean, are we really?
0:24:05 - Jim Carter
fishing. When somebody tells me something difficult, I think everyone can tell whether you're hearing this because that person would like you to hear them and understand and empathize, or they're just telling you. This is sort of to prove something. Like oh look how vulnerable I am, or look how generous.
0:24:24 - Annalisa Holcombe
I am or look.
0:24:25 - Jim Carter
It's not coming from a place of sincerity.
0:24:27 - Annalisa Holcombe
It's performance. I think that can happen.
0:24:29 - Jim Carter
Yeah. Now I don't think that I mean in my own life.
0:24:33 - Annalisa Holcombe
I haven't experienced that a lot, but I could see that it happened, but it's dangerous to real relationships.
0:24:41 - Jim Carter
It is. I think it puts the receiver kind of back on their heels going. Well, now do I have to cook up or think of something that's on a par with what I'm hearing in order to stay connected.
0:24:55 - Annalisa Holcombe
I think that's totally fair. It goes to a strange place. I think, yeah, I have been in situations in which I have shared something very personal and I've had in response, people either connect with me or say, wait a minute, I don't have anything that big to talk about. And I think, oh, my goodness, that's not what this was.
0:25:19 - Jim Carter
This just popped into my head. This circles back to how we started in courage. I think people may say why don't have anything to be vulnerable about, I don't have any dramatic, traumatic thing and so that courage is running into a building you know, a burning building but it is also behaving authentically and I think that vulnerability is kind of the same, I agree. It's I can be really emotive and sort of have I need to share this with you to an extreme.
0:25:56 - Annalisa Holcombe
Right.
0:25:58 - Jim Carter
Or be vulnerable when it's appropriate.
0:26:01 - Annalisa Holcombe
I maybe I have more time on my hands, but I'm thinking a lot about our society right now and it's just a question I wanted to ask you is do you think that there's room for courage and vulnerability in our national discourse?
0:26:14 - Jim Carter
I do.
0:26:15 - Annalisa Holcombe
I absolutely do. Tell me about that.
0:26:17 - Jim Carter
I mean, I think, that all of this anger? I think part of the problem is it's being stoked, but I think all this anger flows from fear that somehow something bad is happening to me or it's going to happen, and I am trying to be fairly neutral and just looking at this from the big picture. And so everyone's making all their choices based on fear. We talked about that Terrible place to make all your choices Grizzly, bear good one Upside down under a boat. Good one, that's a good one.
0:26:52 - Jim Carter
I mean, there are useful, reasonable places for people to have fear. But it seems to me all of the public discourse and all of the choices and all the actions, almost all of them, are coming from a place of fear, and I think that's awful.
0:27:06 - Annalisa Holcombe
You have experience dealing with that in terms of like in your planning work I mean bringing people together who might be from different sides or in your legal work. It seems like those things often feel from the outside as zero sum or somebody wins and somebody loses.
0:27:29 - Jim Carter
That's precisely it If they win, I lose. That's the animating and it's what I've learned through work and those really difficult public hearings and so forth is making it clear to even people who are very angry and not happy about where things are going to say you need to win, Maybe not with outcome, but you need to win in having your voice heard and considered in the decision making that is going to happen in the future and that I think, fair-minded people can walk away and say well, I'm still not happy.
In fact I'm a little bit pissed, but I'm not so furious that I can't see anything but red, and I'm going to make all my choices based on being furious and fearful Collegiality is gone. Mutual respect seems to be gone. Just acknowledging well that's a good point. I understand why you hold that position or feel that way. I don't feel that way, and there was room for agreeable disagreement and it seems to me that that is all gone, because it's either you hate first or die. It's that bad.
0:28:41 - Annalisa Holcombe
Is there, from your perspective, a way out of it? You're talking to our listeners today. What would you tell them about?
0:28:48 - Jim Carter
how to handle it, how to take a deep breath, count to 10, and seek out, look at the commonalities. I mean so. Do your kids play soccer? Are you? Do you volunteer at your church or volunteer at the community center to look for the human things that we all do that are common?
0:29:11 - Annalisa Holcombe
Yes, I commute to work and just it's sort of it's it's yes, I worry about my medical bills or whatever.
0:29:18 - Jim Carter
Yeah, it's so cliche to say well, we just need to see common ground. Well yeah, but what?
0:29:22 - Jim Carter
does that look like it's? I don't think we're ready to have common ground on choices about moving forward. I think we need to reestablish common ground on we are all in this together. We're all kind of doing the same stuff. We're dealing with healthcare and all the stuff. And if we remember that then we?
0:29:41 - Jim Carter
I think we see ourselves as needing to work together on those things, Even if we can't agree about immigration. But, set that aside for a minute. That's just too too hard. And let's agree on the PTA it isn't that hard work to just set that aside and not go to a meeting and yell, but go to a meeting and listen and think about it.
0:30:03 - Annalisa Holcombe
And then say here's what I want to say. I think it's really hard because we do that all the time. We let our anger get the best of us in our discourse regardless, like because it feels so visceral. Can I?
0:30:17 - Annalisa Holcombe
ask a question. Sure, Just an FYI before we continue. The new voice you just heard is Bree. She's our producer and she's about to ask an important question.
0:30:28 - Jim Carter
This is kind of a hard ball, but I wanted to ask it anyway. How do you think that your privilege and your identity plays a role in that? Because in some cases certain people have the privilege to be able to put things aside, while other people can't. Immigration for them could be just a topical thing that doesn't affect you very much, while on another person that is their identity. They aren't immigrating or whatever. That is a great question. And.
0:30:59 - Jim Carter
I'll just say from my perspective, I think immigration is the most important thing to wrestle with, the whole racial privilege, the lack of privilege in immigration and how we treat each other as a diverse society, I think is at the core and the most important thing that we have to come to grips with. I think I know the answer, but I think a number of people have been whipped into a frenzy of fear and they are just incapable, at least at this point, of rational thought. I'll just say that, and so this may be one of those situations like where the bear fears the right thing to do. This may be one of those situations where fighting back hard is the right thing to do and peace in Kumbaya comes later. But in terms of healing.
0:31:47 - Jim Carter
I think there are battles now that need to be won, because I think we are headed in such a bad direction as a country. So I think this is one of those times that you say we got to fight and we got to win. That's not going to make everyone happy because it's a battle, but I think that's the right thing to do now.
0:32:08 - Annalisa Holcombe
What is the role, then, of people like you or people like me, who may not be struggling ourselves with that identity? However, what is our responsibility in the face of almost a struggle for the soul of our society?
0:32:35 - Jim Carter
What's our role? It's, I'm hoping and believing, that this is going to play itself out on the political stage rather than in the streets, which even then would lead to the political stage.
0:32:51 - Annalisa Holcombe
I just want to ask you this. That's kind of out of the blue, but, as you know, I'm really personally very passionate about the roles of mentors in our lives and I am interested in hearing from you about if you've had any particular mentor that was important to you, and what did you learn from them.
0:33:09 - Jim Carter
My curiosity about people leads me to learn something from people just from a five minute encounter, I mean. I one of the delightful people.
0:33:19 - Jim Carter
I sat down on this project was a farmer whose last name is Rick's, whose family opened Rick's College because they were so committed to education. Delightful guy. I learned a ton from him. We just almost couldn't stop talking.
We are totally coming from different spheres in a variety of ways, and I think I feel as though he mentored me in a little way because I let it happen. I wasn't saying, well, I need you to mentor me. But in terms of a longer term relationship, I think Barry Quinn at Westminster College mentored me in a sort of stern way, but I mean, I really feel as though he was not ordering me around, but he was showing me a better way. Here's some things. Here's some ways that you could get what you want to do, which is ski all the time and still get good grades in biology. And I said that I need a middle path. I need that that will work. And he knew he said, if you just got a quit skiing during the week, that wasn't going to work. So he was a mentor and that was just for a semester, a couple of semesters.
Everyone will say if you have a good childhood, everyone will say your parent. I talked already about my father and mother, who were just these giving, loving, wonderful people. I just sort of modeled myself after them. The city manager of Park City, arlene Loble, who just passed away recently, coached me and mentored me as the new young city attorney. I said I've never prosecuted anybody. Is that what city attorneys do so? As she was terrific, and there were other people in the Park City community that were great as I was learning the ropes.
0:35:09 - Annalisa Holcombe
What do you see as a common thread with all of these people? Is there one.
0:35:15 - Jim Carter
Yes, I think it's not entirely selflessness. I think mentoring is OK. We're working together. Let me coach you, Let me help you. I know coach you are mentoring a different way, so there's a little bit of self-interest, but it's the opposite of the cutthroat claw your way to the top sort of working environment.
0:35:36 - Annalisa Holcombe
All right, so we're getting to the end.
As we close, I'm going to go back to the theme of the podcast, which is the whole we spend, and I have to tell you this I call it 92,000 hours because that's the amount of time an average person spends, but besides sleeping, it's the next thing we do. The most in our lives is we work, and it's by far longer than the times we spend with our families or socializing or anything else. So I'm interested in what makes what you do worth that investment, because our time is limited. It's the most important resource we have. So what do?
0:36:19 - Jim Carter
you, there are. First, my father sat me down after a summer of being a welder's helper and I wasn't sure I wanted to go to college. It was after my first disaster cheer, so you don't need to go to college. He said, however, you're going to work for a long time and you need to find something that you enjoy and you think is fulfilling and worth doing, or you're going to be miserable.
0:36:40 - Annalisa Holcombe
Thanks, Jim, you're the best. Thanks, Thanks, thanks, I'll be right back, thanks.
My sincerest thanks to Jim for his vulnerability and thoughtfulness. If you want to learn more about Jim and his work, connect with him on LinkedIn. Next week I will be joined by Sylvia Castro-Bennett. Sylvia is the executive director of the Swazo Business Center, a business resource for the Latino, hispanic and other underserved communities. She also serves on the Utah governor's COVID-19 economic task force and the multicultural task force. She will be speaking about priorities and investing time in the things we most care about.
Join us Music playing] as always. Thank you for listening to 92,000 Hours. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a review. We really appreciate your support. If you're interested in integrating the personal and professional through authentic conversation, just like you heard on our episode today, please check out our work at Connection Collaborative. You can find us at connectioncollaborative.com or send me an email at annalisa@connectioncollaborative.com. Thank you and see you next week on 92,000 Hours. Music playing]. 92,000 Hours is made possible by Connection Collaborative. This episode was produced and edited by Brianna Steggell. Lexie Banks is our marketing director and I'm your host, Annalisa Holcombe.