Ep 29: Vulnerability with Annalisa Holcombe
92,000 Hours
This week on 92,000 Hours, the tables are turned as our host becomes our guest and a former guest becomes our host. In this special episode, Annalisa Holcombe, is interviewed about her thoughts on vulnerability. We would like to extend a special thank you to Shamby Polychronis for hosting this episode and another special thanks to our listeners and connecters for submitting questions for Annalisa.
Today, we discuss what it means to be vulnerable at home and at work. Annalisa answers questions like: Can vulnerability be weaponized? When is the appropriate time and place to share vulnerable things? How can one foster a safe environment for vulnerability, even when circumstances don't allow us much time to dig deep and connect?
As always, you can connect with Annalisa on LinkedIn or by email.
Transcript
Annalisa Holcombe (00:08):
Hi, everyone, and welcome to 92,000 Hours, the podcast where we feature speakers talking about big subjects to help us all think critically about how we find purpose and meaning in those 92,000 hours we spend at work. Today is a very different episode for me, because today I am the one being interviewed. Our friend, Shamby Polychronis, who was interviewed in season two, interviews me. It was both exciting and terrifying to be on the other side of an interview. And it's probably appropriate that today, we'll be about vulnerability.
Shamby Polychronis (00:43):
Well, I want to start you with the hardest one that you ask all of us, which is when you take everything out, the work, the school, volunteering, sports, church, all of those things, and you think about what you're the most proud of, what would your greatest accomplishment be and why?
Annalisa Holcombe (01:14):
That's so funny, because you think I would think about the answer to this all the time and I don't. It's hard to choose just one thing. One that I think about is the relationships in my life and how I'm so happy and really proud of myself for the way that I have been able to cultivate really deep relationships with people that seem to be so compassionate and forgiving and honest and just full of grace with people in my life that I'm so... I'm just really proud of that accomplishment, because I deeply believe in the whole power of real connection.
Annalisa Holcombe (02:01):
And then I was talking to my husband this morning and he said something to me, which I thought, yeah, I am proud of that, which is I approach my own situations in my life with curiosity. If that makes sense, when I'm feeling really strong emotions about something, instead of just going with them and being angry or being frustrated, especially when they're negative emotions, or even when they're really positive emotions where I'm like, gosh, I feel so... This is so powerful for me. I think I'm always curious about myself in much the same way I am with the people I interview for this podcast. I do it to myself where I'm like what is it about this that makes me so frustrated? Or why am I staying up at night thinking about this all the time?
Annalisa Holcombe (02:55):
And so I really do ask myself those questions and do a ton of self reflection about why something might matter to me, both good and bad to try to understand myself better. And it's been really... My husband said, "You are the only person I know that does that." And I said, "Oh wow, that might be a thing that I am proud of myself for doing."
Shamby Polychronis (03:18):
Absolutely. And it's funny, you probably surround yourself with people that do the same. I think once you learn that behavior and you expect it from others or you're asking those questions of others, then you do. And it's uncomfortable sometimes to ask yourself these like, "Why did I just say that? Why did I just do that?" Right?
Annalisa Holcombe (03:36):
Yeah. And then to give yourself some of that kindness that you would've given somebody else. That's the really hard part when you do something or you say something that you're not happy with yourself for. Instead of beating myself up, which I think we all go to is that insecure place where we're like, "Oh, you're dumb or you say the wrong thing every time or you're so awkward." Instead, I'm like what about that situation made me feel so insecure? And how can I approach that in the future? What is it about that particular boss that's making me act this way? What is it about that particular friend set that makes me feel like I'm supposed to act differently than I usually act? And so I'm always wondering those things about myself. And then trying to get to the bottom of it to determine if it's how I'm reacting, a conversation I need to get courage to talk to them about, or if it's something I should just remove myself from.
Shamby Polychronis (04:39):
Right.
Annalisa Holcombe (04:39):
Yeah.
Shamby Polychronis (04:41):
Well, I love this, because this jumps into that whole next topic. And can I just say I'm so honored to be the one that gets to interview you for your own podcast? What a compliment! But I love this topic and I think I get so much of this from my work with you and this idea being vulnerable. And some of the questions that I have for you today, I think they're coming from a very selfish place in my own heart. I just want to know these things about you and how you might feel about them. But going along with this theme of vulnerability, why does that topic resonate with you personally?
Annalisa Holcombe (05:24):
So as you know, we started the AMP program at Westminster a long time ago, 2006. And started having these really honest conversations with people in our Saturday sessions where we talked to about these subject matters, which are much like this podcast. And it wasn't until several years later when I saw the Brene Brown TED Talk, and it was about vulnerability. And I was so in love. And it was because I was like, "Oh my gosh! It's the first time that somebody has boiled down what I've been trying to say or what I think about that she's saying it and she's saying it really eloquently and she's backing it up with research. So now I know I'm not crazy that this matters to me so much."
Annalisa Holcombe (06:17):
And so it matters to me so much this discussion about vulnerability, because we in our American society have this, we don't even know. I talk about this all the time, we don't even know that this is the water we are swimming in, which surrounds us all the time and we are all about being independent and being individualistic and accomplishing things and being super brave and courageous. We do those things all the time. And just my instincts and my gut have been telling me all this time that we talk about courage. And courage is important, but there's no such thing as being brave without the first thing is you're vulnerable. And so we talk about this, what happens after the vulnerability without first talking about and honoring that we are all vulnerable. And all of us, vulnerability... I was thinking about this, vulnerability is not a verb, it's a noun.
Annalisa Holcombe (07:30):
And we are, in fact, vulnerable. And to have that critical self reflection about what are those things that make me vulnerable is really important. And in my PhD program, I wanted to talk about leader vulnerability. And when I talked even to my program chair and to the faculty members, literally they teach leadership and they couldn't wrap their heads around it. They're like, "What are you talking about leader vulnerability? What are you talking about?" And I'm like, "What do you mean what am I talking? What?" It was really weird to me. And they really couldn't wrap their heads around it. So I actually went back and I took...
Annalisa Holcombe (08:11):
JFK wrote a really famous book called Profiles in Courage. And we celebrate it, and they gave out the Profiles in Courage awards every year. And his family still does it. And it's this whole thing about especially political courage. And I went back and I took that book and I took at least three individuals from that book. And I said, "Okay, here's where they talk about courage and here is inherently or explicitly," mostly inherent, because we don't even talk about it. But here's the vulnerability they overcame with that courage. And I just want to remind people that we're vulnerable all the time and that's okay.
Shamby Polychronis (08:56):
Yeah. These extreme strengths don't come from nowhere, they come from somewhere. Absolutely. And don't you feel like once you start exploring these and how you're always thinking on multiple layers, why does somebody do this and what leads to this, don't you feel like sometimes the whole, almost cocktail hours wasted, you just want to be like, all right, let's just cut all of this, jump to what scares you. What are you-
Annalisa Holcombe (09:22):
Always. I can't even stand cocktail hours. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, if I have to go I'm going to die, I don't like it." And I say that I don't know what to say about the weather or about the... But if you want to talk to me about what you're afraid of or what brings you joy, I am all ears. I totally want to learn that from you.
Shamby Polychronis (09:40):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, because you brought up Brene Brown. And one of the things that she mentions is how important boundaries are when we're talking about sharing these really deeply vulnerable things. And that some people might not have earned the right to hear these things or what level do you have to be comfortable with somebody to share these deeply personal things. Do you have any insight into that or how you personally operate or what kinds of recommendations you have for others?
Annalisa Holcombe (10:10):
Yes, absolutely. I think she's completely right. And I think we do. I think that's when we're talking about doing vulnerability. And maybe we can even talk about this too like expecting vulnerability, because that's all different. And we all in ways that we say people get to own their own stories, people get to own their own expressions of vulnerability too. And having that, part of what to happen in order to understand whether it's appropriate to share something, whether you... And sometimes we use oversharing, and it could be like... And I want to encourage our listeners to think about that, like sometimes oversharing or sharing to too soon when somebody hasn't earned the right to know that about you, either they could weaponize it or you might be weaponizing it. And that's where you could be curious about yourself. Am I sharing this about myself with an aim to try to do something right or control the conversation or control the outcome? Really think about why do you feel a need to share it, and have they earned the right to know this about you? And to what end is it appropriate to share it in this context?
Annalisa Holcombe (11:34):
And so there are people in my life that know significant things that are very vulnerable for me having told them, but most people don't. And certainly I don't go to work and say, "Hey, do you guys want to know this thing about me? Or, hey." And it's why I think I really appreciate the self reflection that I do, because I see my vulnerabilities come out at work. And then by asking myself those questions, I go, "Oh, this is why I'm responding to this, this way.? But the person that I'm responding to doesn't need to know that. The person that needs to know that is me. And so it's not appropriate for me to say, "I'm responding to you this way because in two jobs ago, the person that said this to me made me feel bad and so now I think this about you." They don't need to know all that. What they probably need to know is for you to say, "You know what? I may have overreacted to that and I apologize, but can we start again?"
Annalisa Holcombe (12:37):
That boundary is your own to understand. And I think all of those situations are appropriate to really question why you're reacting in the way that you're reacting and whether that person has earned... And by the way, look at me still talking.
Shamby Polychronis (12:57):
I love it.
Annalisa Holcombe (12:58):
Earning that right to understand your own vulnerability and to express vulnerable emotions to another person is built on establishment of trust.
Shamby Polychronis (13:12):
Yeah, absolutely, which goes into this next arena. One of the questions that a subscriber asked about was when so many work environments stifle employees creativity. We're seeing a lot of that in the news right now. And a lot of employees just considering leaving their spaces. But when that happens with their creativity and their dignity being compromised, how can one practice vulnerability in the face of environments that seem unsafe?
Annalisa Holcombe (13:47):
Well, I think that's what's really important is if it's an unsafe environment, it's not the right place to be vulnerable, because of the safety. And I don't even remember. I'd love to find the article. Google researched their entire work base to understand what makes the best place to work here. And people at the time were like, Oh, it's..." And this is a long time ago, of course, but they were like, "Oh, it's..." They're going to say it's ping pong tables in the workplace or it's flexible remote or in the office, it's flexible workspace. And we're talking about that a lot, but what we're covering up is it's not that. What they even found is what makes people the most happy at work. And this is not something we talk about at work is when you have psychological safety at work. And so the ability. And that's what I think that question gets at is like that if you feel psychologically safe, then that means it's okay to be vulnerable.
Annalisa Holcombe (14:54):
And vulnerability, I love that they brought this up, because vulnerability can be expressing your creativity. Vulnerability can be saying I disagree with this or I'm real, I don't even understand why we're going this direction, can you tell me why? Just that ability to just bring your whole self and all the questions and all the fears and all the comments you have. We need to do that, because the workplace is more and more and more global, more and more and more diverse. If this is the place we operate in, it's either going to be a place of real joy, because we can bring all of those different perspectives to bear or it's going to be a place that stifles us and hurts our dignity, because we can't bring who we are to the workplace. And of course, as you know, that will kill me because we spend most of our time at work, that's why we're talking about 92,000 hours.
Shamby Polychronis (15:53):
Right.
Annalisa Holcombe (15:54):
And so I think it's that. It's psychological safety and we don't talk about it.
Shamby Polychronis (15:58):
We don't. No. And I wonder too, as you were answering, I kept having these flashes in my head of these spaces where I have felt very comfortable and everybody contributes and the word family gets thrown out. And then I remember having people come in and say, "Oh, no, we don't want your workspace to be family that completes things and that's actually unhealthy." But as you're talking, I'm thinking the goal of family, I know that's not the case for everybody and all the time. But the goal of family is to have this place where you can be vulnerable, where you can try out new things and know you're safe. People will pick you up if you fall. And maybe that's what we're striving for in our workspace is I want to try out this thing, but I'm not really good at it. And if I fail, can somebody else help me or can somebody try? And is there lack of judgment?
Shamby Polychronis (16:54):
And I think this question really gets at that is when it's not safe to be who you are in practice, and maybe not be amazing at something, but want to get better. If you're feeling judged and you're just performing at 110% all the time, your dignity flies out the window. It's too long of a day. We spend too much time at work to not feel like we're doing a good job or contributing. And where does that come from?
Annalisa Holcombe (17:20):
Yeah. I think it's important that you talked about the family thing, because I worked in a situation where I really felt like it was family. And it turned out to be these relationships from years ago are still relationships that I cultivate and still relationships that matter deeply to me, and that people do and their families do and their joys do. It is like that. It wasn't just. And in fact, this is funny, because about a week ago, I had one of my own employees send me an email about how important it was to them to have a difficult conversation with me as their leader, and that they were going to call up all their courage and be vulnerable and tell me what they need from me. And what was funny is, so here's the employee saying it to me, and I can only imagine how brave that must have felt to be that employee. Also, here's an interesting thing, I was also scared to death, like what is it that this employee feels they need to tell me that I must be doing so wrong as their leader? What am I doing wrong? Oh, no.
Annalisa Holcombe (18:29):
This was a really scary moment for both of us to show up to. And of course, I used all the Brene Brown language that I could get. I'm like, okay, show up without my armor, don't try to respond, I'm just going to listen to what this person has to say. And if I need to stop, I'll just say, "I'm here to listen." If I don't know an answer to what this person's asking me, then I'm going to just say, "I don't know the answer yet, let me hold onto this, because I want to honor it." So I was trying to do all the things and it turned out to be lovely, but that those moments are so important.
Annalisa Holcombe (19:07):
And by the way, they also are... When that person sent me the email, they said, "It's important to me that we think critically about our working relationship." And I had this reaction to working relationship, and I still do, because I think, why do we have to have that qualifier on it? Isn't it just a relationship? And I push up against it. It is a relationship. It just happens to be a relationship that happens at work. But to say that a working relationship, it somehow demotes it in terms of your relations. And I don't know that, that's appropriate, because we spend so much time at work that those relationships, those working relationships are the ones we have the most and they're affecting our lives the most. So for this employee, that working relationship with the boss, which is me, is a significant part of their lives. And we should really communicate that.
Annalisa Holcombe (20:20):
So when we talk about work as family, I've experienced that and have had wonderful parts about it. What you talked about before is the shadow side of that. But I think that there's a shadow side to everything. So let's not overreact. It's like when the pendulum swings, there is a lovely place in the middle between what's appropriate when you think about your colleagues as family that is either not so family that you share hotel rooms when you travel. And so not family that you have no idea if they're sick today or if they're sick or if they're going through cancer treatment. We should know. There should be a nice level of I care about you as a human. I spent all this time with you, and I want to know you.
Shamby Polychronis (21:14):
Well, I so appreciate that you invited that conversation too and nurtured that. I think it's so bred into us that we should naturally be skeptical of feedback and criticism, but the fact that anyone's even brave enough to say, "Hey, to pause, can we chat?" That's credit. That's something to give. And it also shows that they value your relationship enough to make it better. It would be easier to walk out. It'd be easier to go get another job. It would be easier just not to have that conversation and let it fizzle. And yet our first reaction is, "Oh, no, what have we done?" Yeah.
Annalisa Holcombe (21:59):
Yeah. But that's vulnerable for everybody involved. We are vulnerable. Every day we show up to work, there's the fear that we could be doing something that is harmful to another person that we care about at work. And that's okay, because we're trying. And in fact, it is. We are vulnerable and we could be doing that. But if we've created, which takes a ton of work, a place of psychological safety where someone can say, "Hey, this hurts me when you do that," good to know, I'm so sorry.
Shamby Polychronis (22:37):
Right. And half the time you have to tamper yourself back a little bit and be like, "Don't respond," because your initial response is, "Well, but that's not what I meant." Or to be defensive that would shut it down-
Annalisa Holcombe (22:48):
Yeah, exactly.
Shamby Polychronis (22:50):
And be like, "Wow, let me think about that for a minute." That's hard for you.
Annalisa Holcombe (22:55):
And to say the very first thing, which is, I am so honored that you have the courage to tell me that.
Shamby Polychronis (23:05):
But one of the big takeaways I think definitely for me is just this idea that even the most vulnerable people aren't vulnerable all the time, and it's really important to gauge that. And when we're hurt by somebody, it might take us even more to get comfortable the next time. It's not this layer of 80%. After 24 hours, I feel very vulnerable with people. It layers.
Annalisa Holcombe (23:32):
Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think we talk about that in our personal lives as if it's a given. Oh, you were hurt in your last relationship, so, of course, you're going to be more guarded in your new relationship. We talk about all the time. But that's real in all relationships, even when they're the "working relationships." You can be hurt at work and it can affect how you relate to people at work. So we're still all human all the time.
Shamby Polychronis (23:58):
Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's so important. And it's not to say that you wouldn't be vulnerable again. It's just to say that people do have to earn it a little bit more.
Annalisa Holcombe (24:10):
Yeah.
Shamby Polychronis (24:11):
So you mentioned weaponizing a couple of times, weaponizing vulnerability. And has that been used against you in a way that you can share or cautions that you have for other people, especially if somebody's not comfortable being vulnerable? You probably have several listeners that aren't comfortable being vulnerable and are looking for like I want to be that person that's vulnerable. What would be some of those cautionary tells you could tell them or tips that you give them?
Annalisa Holcombe (24:40):
One of the things I've been thinking about with this is that I suspect I could be wrong. But I suspect that individuals who listen to this podcast are more comfortable with their vulnerability than individuals who would say, "Why in the world would I spend an hour listen to somebody talking about vulnerability? That's crazy." But both of those people are good and important and we are in relationships with both of those types of people. All of us are. I just think that for our listeners, you can't demand vulnerability from another person, you have to think about at it as providing the psychological safety. And Brene Brown calls it building the container. You have to build a container for someone to feel safe enough to let themselves be seen, all of themselves. And that's super scary. I think it's the scariest thing we do.
Annalisa Holcombe (25:49):
So to right away expect someone to do that is not okay. Right away we shouldn't do that. And it is that dance that is always going to be trust and vulnerability and communication, and trust and vulnerability and communication, and a little bit and a little bit and a little bit, and pretty soon you have a great container where you can fully be vulnerable with someone. I think that's limited in your life where there are people who so see you, they know all of you. And I think that's appropriate. I think that it's right to only have a few people that really, really know the whole thing or see the whole thing. But it's also important to cultivate those people and make sure that there are some in your life and that you're not alone.
Shamby Polychronis (26:42):
I so appreciate that, because it does go to one of the questions that was asked, which is, "Hey, how can I make my partner share more with me? How can I make them be more vulnerable?" And your answer is perfect. It's like you've got to create a space for them, you can't just demand it of people. And I think that's really important. There's several of us that are extroverts. We share a lot or we're very vocal. And sometimes it's hard to give people time and space to be comfortable, but so important if you're really going to get to know who they are, right?
Annalisa Holcombe (27:16):
Yeah. And your level, what you think about in terms of this is what vulnerability looks like for me. And for you it might be, I'm going to tell you about my childhood trauma and I know you for a week. And for somebody else, they might be like, "Whoa, I am not ready for that. We have not created a container where that makes sense for me." And so if that person that you're in a relationship with gives you a little glimpse of something, that might be crazy vulnerability for them. And so for them to be like, "I am going to tell you about when my teacher in 10th grade said this thing to me," that might be as hard for them to say as it was for you to say some big giant childhood trauma. But that's where that trust and communication loop is to make sure that I see you and I see that trauma and we can never lessen somebody's vulnerability.
Annalisa Holcombe (28:13):
If we tell somebody else that their vulnerability isn't as big as my vulnerability, that's not okay, that's not the same. Everybody gets to sit in own vulnerability and their own courage, and we should approach it with that curiosity and with that compassion and empathy. So all these things we talk about, they play into vulnerability so much. And especially when we're having those, especially with relationships that we care about.
Annalisa Holcombe (28:53):
If you're interested in the subject of vulnerability, you can also listen to a prior interview on this podcast with Jim Carter in season one. I really want to thank several of our listeners and our special connectors for submitting questions for me. A big shout out to Sarah Pike, Ge Santos, Life Taylor, Gary Danes, and Lexie Banks. Thank you so much for taking the time to help us craft the right questions about vulnerability. Now, let's just jump back into this interview.
Shamby Polychronis (29:40):
Well, this question goes back to maybe a little more processing on your side, about the podcast, about your intents behind the podcast and why you even started it. So this comes from another listener and it's Brene also said, "I only share when I have no unmet needs that need to be filled. I firmly believe being vulnerable with a larger audience is only a good idea if the healing is tied to sharing, not the expectations I might have for the response I get." So for you, in creating the podcast, does this ring true? And has engaging in these discussions healed you in any ways?
Annalisa Holcombe (30:18):
Oh my gosh! So I say it sometimes jokingly, but it's actually really true that this podcast is super selfish of me. And I acknowledge that. I get so much out of it. And I get it in the way that my... I say this that in creating AMP, I had no idea that those Saturday sessions and those honest conversations about really big subject matters like fear or compassion or empathy or vulnerability would impact me in the ways that they did. And the learning that I got from our guest speakers or from our college students who had something to say was so meaningful to me and grounded me in ways that I had no ability... I didn't know that I needed it to be grounded, but it really grounded me so that I could see I had clarity about what I believe and what my values are and what my priorities are and how I want to like, oh, this is the direction I want to go.
Annalisa Holcombe (31:23):
And what I found is after I didn't have AMP, it got jumbled for me. And I think it gets jumbled really easily if we're not really intentional. And so yes, this is a place that has some selfishness for me, because every time I talk to somebody on the podcast, I learn something, not just about them, but about myself. And I have something I can put to work in my own life. I think, "Oh, I can do this thing." Even right now when we were talking, just before this when I was talking about my staff member who reached out to me, as I was saying, I thought, "I need to send them a thank you note." I haven't sent them a thank you note since then. I need to acknowledge them.
Annalisa Holcombe (32:16):
And I get that every time where I'm like, "Oh, I can put this to work right now." And so yes, that's selfish. Second, I'm really hopeful that other people are getting similar things, that they're listening to it actively, because there's something you can get from it potentially. Really, if you're self reflecting while you listen, yeah, this is a service and I think. And then third, the vulnerability. People are being vulnerable and I'm being vulnerable and asking the questions, but I'm also not weaponizing my vulnerability in these. I'm not saying, "Here's everything you need to know about me and my life." If it makes sense in the context, I might say it, but I might not. I might think, "This isn't appropriate for you."
Shamby Polychronis (33:12):
Yeah. Isn't that fascinating? You never know what you're going to take away. I've got to say my experience on these podcasts and also in AMP has very much... I think I've walked away with a bigger benefit than I provided to these groups. But one of the things that was so important for me was this idea that people almost go through a season. And I think being in higher ed, we get usually an academic school year with somebody. And it's almost after the holidays, so about this time, that they come back and they start being more vulnerable. And all of a sudden your heart breaks open a little bit for even the tough ones, the ones that gave those answers that you didn't love, the ones that you're like, "Whoa, I wouldn't want to spend much time with at this person." And then all of a sudden, once they are vulnerable and you see this is where that answer came from and it's a trauma response or it's what their dad would've wished they would say or it's who they think they need to present, that's been highly important for me to learn is I have to work through that to get through their vulnerabilities before I judge people, which is really hard. We don't have relationships that we get a year at least with. Not all the time. Yeah.
Shamby Polychronis (34:30):
How do you do vulnerability in shorter meetings with people? Is there a way that you can do it without getting into their personal lives and all of those things? What ways do you engage authentically as a leader in those one off kinds of meetings with a funder or a future student that you may or may not see again? How do you engage in that way?
Annalisa Holcombe (34:56):
Wow, that's a good question. My initial thought is I think the way that I right off the bat do that is that I do my very best to show up to meetings. Or meetings engagements really open, and especially open to expressing joy. I think that we don't talk enough about how expressing your passion and your joy of... And I think it might actually be the passion piece, because we edit our passion. And to show up to something and say like, "Oh my gosh, I feel like this is so meaningful to me," and to really show up with that full emotion, that full passion like this matters to me, because usually at work, and especially if we're working in a situation that we do get to feel passionate about to open up that emotion so that it's okay for somebody else to join in with you, because we often approach things in business as business like, "Here's the thing we need to accomplish, blah, blah, blah," but I work hard in my connections with people to always get to the why, always.
Annalisa Holcombe (36:32):
And I really notice if I'm in a meeting like an initial meeting with someone, if there is some type of initial trust that someone's offering me, that allows me to express my passion. And so I personally really think a lot about that, about how am I showing up and asking people and giving them the freedom to express their passion. So I guess that's how I do it in short spurts is really more focused on allowing people to talk about their why.
Shamby Polychronis (37:10):
Yeah. I think that's really important. And the next question, I think you've started getting at that too is what do you do differently in your teams? These are folks that you are with for a long period of time, how does vulnerability look on a team that you are dealing with all the time? And to some degree there's risk there, I know personally if I know I'm never going to see another person, I don't really care what they think of me, I don't care if I say the right things. It doesn't matter. But someone I know I'm going to have a really important relationship with for a long time, I stumble, I bumble, I worry if I present myself well. So how do you cultivate that vulnerability in teaming?
Annalisa Holcombe (37:58):
Oh my goodness, I'm struggling with it right now. So let's just acknowledge that there's so much to that. And it's really interesting, because I think it's worth knowing that there is of course an inherent structural difference between someone who is an employee and someone who is a leader and the vulnerability that they feel. I think that's important to acknowledge right off the bat. And where I sit currently in my work, structurally I'm the leader. And so it's a different type of vulnerability. And I'm trying really hard to sit with my own empathy about what it feels like to be the people who report up through me.
Annalisa Holcombe (38:44):
And I think that our society is so not built for that, that part of me just trying to up a system in which I say out loud in my teams, "That is hard, I don't know the answer yet, let's sit down and work on this." Or especially this, when I say this culture, because we're now working on our team culture, and I'm like, "This is ours to solve." And I'm getting push back from my team like, "Why aren't we bringing in the HR department to solve it?" And I have to sit in empathy with my team members and say, okay, I get why they're saying this, because for me I'm like, "Because you can't outsource culture, we're going to have to figure it out." Nobody's coming to save us, we can only save ourselves. And so there's no cliff notes for this and there's no... It's just going through it. It's establishing that trust and having these difficult conversations and working through the muck of this, but I'm invested with you and we're going to do it.
Annalisa Holcombe (39:52):
And so I think that long term is super iterative. And you'll take a couple steps forward and a couple steps back on a team. But I do think that setting it up with not being my blah, here's all my stuff as a leader or as an employee, but taking a little step of vulnerability, seeing if some communication happens, seeing if you feel a little more trust and then level setting, maybe you raise a little bit and then you do it again. And maybe you raise a little bit or maybe you go down a step and then you got to try again. And I think it's that. I think it just like in long term relationships, it is that dance. And I think the dance is vulnerability, trust, communication, or I guess it goes vulnerability, communication, trust, or it might go communication, trust, vulnerability. It's linked. There's no chicken and egg. It's all in it together.
Shamby Polychronis (40:48):
I think it's so important. It keeps going back. I think the theme of this conversation has been relationships are relationships. And there's this honeymoon phase even with employment relationships, these "work relationships" where you get in, you're like, "I love this culture, my boss is great, I get acknowledged." But at some point in time, you're going to experience disappointment, you're going to experience conflict and it's how do you work through it. And there's no magic checklist. There's no bringing in HR. I'm sure they have their place, but if you're trying to work on culture, it's the relationship you're building. You're working through misunderstandings and conflict, and that's really hard.
Annalisa Holcombe (41:34):
And feelings. We pretend that feelings don't happen at work and they happen all day long. We're human.
Shamby Polychronis (41:41):
Yeah. I don't know where we picked up this message that, that's your personal life. It's like this is my work life, it's now influencing my personal life. Right?
Annalisa Holcombe (41:50):
Actually, it's just my life. I have it all day long every day.
Shamby Polychronis (41:54):
Yeah. I think same thing you ask your family. Most of our families and the people we with and have dinners with and associate with, they know about our work lives. There's no unmeshing, especially now, which I'm curious. Here we are, we're going into our third season of the pandemic, so I'm thinking out loud about, do you think by seeing people's homes and their lives in Zoom, a lot of us, do you think there's more or less vulnerability with the way that we're working currently?
Annalisa Holcombe (42:35):
I actually think there's more. I think that we don't have... And this can be privileged too. So I think it's really important to acknowledge that, because when we get up and go to work, we have the ability to curate how we show up. You have that commute time to get yourself in order, you have the particular work clothes you wear for work that when it's on Zoom and we show our backgrounds, you can see the stuff around you, you can hear the dog bark at the mailman, and especially for all the parents who had their children home during the time, you can see their kids there or their spouse there. And I think people gave each other a ton of grace during that time. And actually it was super meaningful.
Annalisa Holcombe (43:30):
I'll always remember I had this opportunity to have a Zoom call with a hero of mine who was at his house in Washington, DC. And I am so privileged that I got to have this conversation. And I could see that he was doing this call from his mudroom. As a regular person that has a mudroom that has his kids clothes, flung behind him and the lunchbox with his kids name on it. And I was like, "He's just a regular dad doing the stuff that parents do around the country every day." And somehow that grounds us when we see each other doing those things.
Annalisa Holcombe (44:13):
I'm a little worried that as we start talking post pandemic, which I don't know if there's such a thing, but I think that it will be so important. And I think this is why we're seeing this idea of the great resignation is that people want to have that grace given to them as whole people. The stuff we've been talking about on 92,000 Hours all this time like I'm a whole person. I think people are like, "I'm not willing to show up differently, I want someone to see me."
Shamby Polychronis (44:46):
Yes, I agree. I think you're right. I think in some ways, once again, these topics aren't just standalone topics. And in where we are more vulnerable, people can see inside my space, people know what my family sounds, like what my dog spark sounds like. We're more vulnerable. But it's also pushed us to have more solid boundaries and say like, "Look, I don't even have a good excuse, I can't even lie to you, I can't say I was pulled over, I wasn't driving, but I just don't want to anymore. Past 5:00, my brain quits working. I have to say no to that." It's the most boundaries I've ever put on anything ever in my whole life, which is so bizarre to me. You think we're more flexible, but I think in a lot of ways being more vulnerable makes us say, "I've gotta protect the side of me too."
Annalisa Holcombe (45:35):
Yes. I think that's absolutely right. And I think protect ourselves and demanding more of our workplaces is a really good thing coming out of this.
Shamby Polychronis (45:47):
Absolutely. I know there's people that predict stuff like this. I'm just not one of them. But I could definitely go down that path of seeing all the negative horrible things. But on the flip side, it's like, "Hey, I think this stuff was all boiling up to the top and we're all there and this just caused it to just come to the surface and now we're needing to address it." And if there's ever a time for vulnerability, it's going to be now. We all have to be honest about what we're bringing to the table now that we're changing expectations for ourselves and our workspaces and the people we work with. And we've got to be honest about that. Just changing work culture doesn't always fix it. Sometimes it does, but not often. Sometimes you just drag it into the next space with you. Right?
Annalisa Holcombe (46:31):
Yeah. It makes me think of... So one of the reasons why we're airing this episode on the day that my youngest daughter is going in for heart surgery. And so when you think about... So this is the place where people can understand that acute feeling of vulnerability. And because we talk out vulnerability, we have to just acknowledge that having a child is super vulnerable. And that whole like there's another human walking around with your heart. That's super scary. You feel really vulnerable all the time. And it's a place where, for me, the thought that somebody's going to then be operating on her heart is terrifying. I'm trying not to think about it, because it's so terrifying. Even though I know we're most likely going to be just fine and it's going to be great afterwards, but there's that little chance. But I think that, that's this bigger picture of how all vulnerability feels. It's just that people can give you it for your child in ways that they may not give it to you for how it feels to go to work or how it feels to start a romance, because still that feeling is real.
Annalisa Holcombe (48:00):
But the boundaries are important, and I'm feeling it right now at work. There's this pressure at my workplace too, especially amongst the senior leaders that we should show up in person. And I have some discomfort with that, because I'm not sure I trust that I'm going to be okay physically. But boy, having a situation like your child being potentially in real danger allows you to just go like, "Here's my boundary period, if you don't like it, I'm leaving." And the more we can find ways to do that, even when it's not something as serious and critical about your kids' health, but if there is an opportunity... But I get that I get to say this from a place of privilege, even though I'm terrified that I wouldn't find another job, because we all are like that like, "Oh my gosh, I might never find another job."
Annalisa Holcombe (49:02):
I think really understanding where that line is for you and what that boundary looks like, I think we all wait until somebody's crossed it sometimes. Not all of us, but we sometimes wait until it's been crossed and then we're mad. And then we quit our job or leave the relationship and to put in the work before to understand, "Oh, this is where my boundary is and I see it creeping up." There might be a way to salvage some things. If you're able to say, "Hey, we're getting close to my boundary and it's not going to be okay with me." Can you imagine if we were able to do that more, but that takes a lot of self knowledge.
Shamby Polychronis (49:40):
It's like pre-conflict resolution, right?
Annalisa Holcombe (49:42):
Yeah.
Shamby Polychronis (49:42):
You're saying, "Hey, we're tiptoeing right here in some territory. Let's not go there." And you're right. I think we're so nervous about what that will do. And then you just think, "Well, I'll just leave." But it doesn't get you anywhere. But I think you're right. Once again, it's with those boundaries and how important they are. And I'm really grateful that you were vulnerable and brought up your daughter's surgery, because how scary one and we're all thinking of you, of course. And you're right, she's going to be fine and just don't listen to news or Google anything and you'll be fine. But also the flip side of that and vulnerability is the most vulnerable you can be is when you're in a situation where, one, you're helpless and you can't control a situation. And you're hoping that all the experts come to the table like they should that day. And then you need help. You're going to have to have someone fill in for you or be patient with you as you help her feel better and get through what she needs to get through.
Shamby Polychronis (50:50):
So can you talk a little bit about how vulnerable you felt definitely through the history of your daughter's complications, but also then did that pay off, being vulnerable, asking for help saying, I can't be here for that? Does that end up paying off?
Annalisa Holcombe (51:10):
Yes, it pays off so much. It's funny that we put those and I'm definitely guilty of it, is like people aren't going to be there for you or you've got to do it yourself. But when you open up to someone about like, "Hey, I'm really scared and I'm not sure I'm going to be okay and I could use your help," people are there. I was just reading this article. And I think especially when it comes to health, and the reason why is because I think every single person has somebody they love who they worry about their health. And that's a place where every single person can have empathy for you. It's not like you're a boss or you are a Democrat or you're a Republican or you're a mom or you're a child. You have a person you love. Every one of us can be like, "Oh, that would be hard."
Annalisa Holcombe (52:14):
And I was reading this article, I'm doing this work with regard to... This feels weird to even mention, but I'm doing this work with regard to Mike Leavitt for my job. And I was reading this he put forth a paper when he was Secretary of Health and Human Services. And he said that he believes the very most important thing that America can do for diplomacy is health diplomacy. And he said by going into the world and having Americans help other countries with health disparities in those countries, we do more than any other work that could happen within the secretary of state's office. And I was thinking about that. He said something like because our health is heard through our hearts and we all love someone, every single person in the world loves someone. And we are all worried about somebody else's health.
Annalisa Holcombe (53:15):
So those conversations about if somebody you know has cancer, if somebody you know has a heart attack, we all feel it, because it's an easy place to understand what that vulnerability feels like. And we all have to deal with that by opening up and saying, "Hi, everyone, I'm having this struggle." People have been really kind to me, crazy kind. I don't mean to say crazy. That's a terrible word to say, because what I don't mean is crazy, I mean abundantly kind. People are so willing to provide you with almost anything you need when it comes to really deep relatable vulnerability. Now, if we could just do that more with the kind that isn't as relatable, that would be fair.
Shamby Polychronis (54:11):
Yeah, that's harder. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything else you'd like to share with vulnerability?
Annalisa Holcombe (54:18):
I don't think so. I think that we've went through a whole round circle, which has been really good. But I think just important thing that being vulnerable is a fact. We are, you are, everybody listening is vulnerable right this minute right now. And so it's just how we hold that and whether we let vulnerability rule us or whether we are able to say, "I see you vulnerability, and I know you're there, you're my companion and we're going to go through this, I'm going to be brave and go through this, anyway."
Shamby Polychronis (55:08):
I think that's so interesting to think of it, almost as a partnership with something that we thought as an enemy almost, right?
Annalisa Holcombe (55:16):
Yeah.
Shamby Polychronis (55:17):
This is really important partnership.
Annalisa Holcombe (55:19):
Yeah, exactly.
Shamby Polychronis (55:21):
I love it.
Annalisa Holcombe (55:22):
Thank you.
Shamby Polychronis (55:24):
And what a pleasure it is to be able to interview the podcaster for this podcast! What an honor!
Annalisa Holcombe (55:34):
That's because you're the rock star of all things 92,000 Hours and Amp and you're willing to be vulnerable in your questioning. So thank you.
Shamby Polychronis (55:47):
Absolutely. It's absolutely my pleasure.
Annalisa Holcombe (56:04):
(silence)
Annalisa Holcombe (56:15):
My deep gratitude to Shamby Polychronis for this interview. She is not only a dear friend, but also a great collaborator. Her thoughtfulness and intuitive ability to engage deeply and authentically provided just the right container of care and safety I needed. If you want to hear my more from her, you can catch her episode on resilience in season two. Next week, I'll be joined by Nicole Palmer, leader, educator, ally and mom. She'll talk about building community, especially as a school principal and how she has handled the outside influence of protests, but also support by keeping the children at the heart of what she does each day. I hope you'll join us.
Annalisa Holcombe (00:08):
Hi, everyone, and welcome to 92,000 Hours, the podcast where we feature speakers talking about big subjects to help us all think critically about how we find purpose and meaning in those 92,000 hours we spend at work. Today is a very different episode for me, because today I am the one being interviewed. Our friend, Shamby Polychronis, who was interviewed in season two, interviews me. It was both exciting and terrifying to be on the other side of an interview. And it's probably appropriate that today, we'll be about vulnerability.
Shamby Polychronis (00:43):
Well, I want to start you with the hardest one that you ask all of us, which is when you take everything out, the work, the school, volunteering, sports, church, all of those things, and you think about what you're the most proud of, what would your greatest accomplishment be and why?
Annalisa Holcombe (01:14):
That's so funny, because you think I would think about the answer to this all the time and I don't. It's hard to choose just one thing. One that I think about is the relationships in my life and how I'm so happy and really proud of myself for the way that I have been able to cultivate really deep relationships with people that seem to be so compassionate and forgiving and honest and just full of grace with people in my life that I'm so... I'm just really proud of that accomplishment, because I deeply believe in the whole power of real connection.
Annalisa Holcombe (02:01):
And then I was talking to my husband this morning and he said something to me, which I thought, yeah, I am proud of that, which is I approach my own situations in my life with curiosity. If that makes sense, when I'm feeling really strong emotions about something, instead of just going with them and being angry or being frustrated, especially when they're negative emotions, or even when they're really positive emotions where I'm like, gosh, I feel so... This is so powerful for me. I think I'm always curious about myself in much the same way I am with the people I interview for this podcast. I do it to myself where I'm like what is it about this that makes me so frustrated? Or why am I staying up at night thinking about this all the time?
Annalisa Holcombe (02:55):
And so I really do ask myself those questions and do a ton of self reflection about why something might matter to me, both good and bad to try to understand myself better. And it's been really... My husband said, "You are the only person I know that does that." And I said, "Oh wow, that might be a thing that I am proud of myself for doing."
Shamby Polychronis (03:18):
Absolutely. And it's funny, you probably surround yourself with people that do the same. I think once you learn that behavior and you expect it from others or you're asking those questions of others, then you do. And it's uncomfortable sometimes to ask yourself these like, "Why did I just say that? Why did I just do that?" Right?
Annalisa Holcombe (03:36):
Yeah. And then to give yourself some of that kindness that you would've given somebody else. That's the really hard part when you do something or you say something that you're not happy with yourself for. Instead of beating myself up, which I think we all go to is that insecure place where we're like, "Oh, you're dumb or you say the wrong thing every time or you're so awkward." Instead, I'm like what about that situation made me feel so insecure? And how can I approach that in the future? What is it about that particular boss that's making me act this way? What is it about that particular friend set that makes me feel like I'm supposed to act differently than I usually act? And so I'm always wondering those things about myself. And then trying to get to the bottom of it to determine if it's how I'm reacting, a conversation I need to get courage to talk to them about, or if it's something I should just remove myself from.
Shamby Polychronis (04:39):
Right.
Annalisa Holcombe (04:39):
Yeah.
Shamby Polychronis (04:41):
Well, I love this, because this jumps into that whole next topic. And can I just say I'm so honored to be the one that gets to interview you for your own podcast? What a compliment! But I love this topic and I think I get so much of this from my work with you and this idea being vulnerable. And some of the questions that I have for you today, I think they're coming from a very selfish place in my own heart. I just want to know these things about you and how you might feel about them. But going along with this theme of vulnerability, why does that topic resonate with you personally?
Annalisa Holcombe (05:24):
So as you know, we started the AMP program at Westminster a long time ago, 2006. And started having these really honest conversations with people in our Saturday sessions where we talked to about these subject matters, which are much like this podcast. And it wasn't until several years later when I saw the Brene Brown TED Talk, and it was about vulnerability. And I was so in love. And it was because I was like, "Oh my gosh! It's the first time that somebody has boiled down what I've been trying to say or what I think about that she's saying it and she's saying it really eloquently and she's backing it up with research. So now I know I'm not crazy that this matters to me so much."
Annalisa Holcombe (06:17):
And so it matters to me so much this discussion about vulnerability, because we in our American society have this, we don't even know. I talk about this all the time, we don't even know that this is the water we are swimming in, which surrounds us all the time and we are all about being independent and being individualistic and accomplishing things and being super brave and courageous. We do those things all the time. And just my instincts and my gut have been telling me all this time that we talk about courage. And courage is important, but there's no such thing as being brave without the first thing is you're vulnerable. And so we talk about this, what happens after the vulnerability without first talking about and honoring that we are all vulnerable. And all of us, vulnerability... I was thinking about this, vulnerability is not a verb, it's a noun.
Annalisa Holcombe (07:30):
And we are, in fact, vulnerable. And to have that critical self reflection about what are those things that make me vulnerable is really important. And in my PhD program, I wanted to talk about leader vulnerability. And when I talked even to my program chair and to the faculty members, literally they teach leadership and they couldn't wrap their heads around it. They're like, "What are you talking about leader vulnerability? What are you talking about?" And I'm like, "What do you mean what am I talking? What?" It was really weird to me. And they really couldn't wrap their heads around it. So I actually went back and I took...
Annalisa Holcombe (08:11):
JFK wrote a really famous book called Profiles in Courage. And we celebrate it, and they gave out the Profiles in Courage awards every year. And his family still does it. And it's this whole thing about especially political courage. And I went back and I took that book and I took at least three individuals from that book. And I said, "Okay, here's where they talk about courage and here is inherently or explicitly," mostly inherent, because we don't even talk about it. But here's the vulnerability they overcame with that courage. And I just want to remind people that we're vulnerable all the time and that's okay.
Shamby Polychronis (08:56):
Yeah. These extreme strengths don't come from nowhere, they come from somewhere. Absolutely. And don't you feel like once you start exploring these and how you're always thinking on multiple layers, why does somebody do this and what leads to this, don't you feel like sometimes the whole, almost cocktail hours wasted, you just want to be like, all right, let's just cut all of this, jump to what scares you. What are you-
Annalisa Holcombe (09:22):
Always. I can't even stand cocktail hours. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, if I have to go I'm going to die, I don't like it." And I say that I don't know what to say about the weather or about the... But if you want to talk to me about what you're afraid of or what brings you joy, I am all ears. I totally want to learn that from you.
Shamby Polychronis (09:40):
Yeah. Well, it's interesting, because you brought up Brene Brown. And one of the things that she mentions is how important boundaries are when we're talking about sharing these really deeply vulnerable things. And that some people might not have earned the right to hear these things or what level do you have to be comfortable with somebody to share these deeply personal things. Do you have any insight into that or how you personally operate or what kinds of recommendations you have for others?
Annalisa Holcombe (10:10):
Yes, absolutely. I think she's completely right. And I think we do. I think that's when we're talking about doing vulnerability. And maybe we can even talk about this too like expecting vulnerability, because that's all different. And we all in ways that we say people get to own their own stories, people get to own their own expressions of vulnerability too. And having that, part of what to happen in order to understand whether it's appropriate to share something, whether you... And sometimes we use oversharing, and it could be like... And I want to encourage our listeners to think about that, like sometimes oversharing or sharing to too soon when somebody hasn't earned the right to know that about you, either they could weaponize it or you might be weaponizing it. And that's where you could be curious about yourself. Am I sharing this about myself with an aim to try to do something right or control the conversation or control the outcome? Really think about why do you feel a need to share it, and have they earned the right to know this about you? And to what end is it appropriate to share it in this context?
Annalisa Holcombe (11:34):
And so there are people in my life that know significant things that are very vulnerable for me having told them, but most people don't. And certainly I don't go to work and say, "Hey, do you guys want to know this thing about me? Or, hey." And it's why I think I really appreciate the self reflection that I do, because I see my vulnerabilities come out at work. And then by asking myself those questions, I go, "Oh, this is why I'm responding to this, this way.? But the person that I'm responding to doesn't need to know that. The person that needs to know that is me. And so it's not appropriate for me to say, "I'm responding to you this way because in two jobs ago, the person that said this to me made me feel bad and so now I think this about you." They don't need to know all that. What they probably need to know is for you to say, "You know what? I may have overreacted to that and I apologize, but can we start again?"
Annalisa Holcombe (12:37):
That boundary is your own to understand. And I think all of those situations are appropriate to really question why you're reacting in the way that you're reacting and whether that person has earned... And by the way, look at me still talking.
Shamby Polychronis (12:57):
I love it.
Annalisa Holcombe (12:58):
Earning that right to understand your own vulnerability and to express vulnerable emotions to another person is built on establishment of trust.
Shamby Polychronis (13:12):
Yeah, absolutely, which goes into this next arena. One of the questions that a subscriber asked about was when so many work environments stifle employees creativity. We're seeing a lot of that in the news right now. And a lot of employees just considering leaving their spaces. But when that happens with their creativity and their dignity being compromised, how can one practice vulnerability in the face of environments that seem unsafe?
Annalisa Holcombe (13:47):
Well, I think that's what's really important is if it's an unsafe environment, it's not the right place to be vulnerable, because of the safety. And I don't even remember. I'd love to find the article. Google researched their entire work base to understand what makes the best place to work here. And people at the time were like, Oh, it's..." And this is a long time ago, of course, but they were like, "Oh, it's..." They're going to say it's ping pong tables in the workplace or it's flexible remote or in the office, it's flexible workspace. And we're talking about that a lot, but what we're covering up is it's not that. What they even found is what makes people the most happy at work. And this is not something we talk about at work is when you have psychological safety at work. And so the ability. And that's what I think that question gets at is like that if you feel psychologically safe, then that means it's okay to be vulnerable.
Annalisa Holcombe (14:54):
And vulnerability, I love that they brought this up, because vulnerability can be expressing your creativity. Vulnerability can be saying I disagree with this or I'm real, I don't even understand why we're going this direction, can you tell me why? Just that ability to just bring your whole self and all the questions and all the fears and all the comments you have. We need to do that, because the workplace is more and more and more global, more and more and more diverse. If this is the place we operate in, it's either going to be a place of real joy, because we can bring all of those different perspectives to bear or it's going to be a place that stifles us and hurts our dignity, because we can't bring who we are to the workplace. And of course, as you know, that will kill me because we spend most of our time at work, that's why we're talking about 92,000 hours.
Shamby Polychronis (15:53):
Right.
Annalisa Holcombe (15:54):
And so I think it's that. It's psychological safety and we don't talk about it.
Shamby Polychronis (15:58):
We don't. No. And I wonder too, as you were answering, I kept having these flashes in my head of these spaces where I have felt very comfortable and everybody contributes and the word family gets thrown out. And then I remember having people come in and say, "Oh, no, we don't want your workspace to be family that completes things and that's actually unhealthy." But as you're talking, I'm thinking the goal of family, I know that's not the case for everybody and all the time. But the goal of family is to have this place where you can be vulnerable, where you can try out new things and know you're safe. People will pick you up if you fall. And maybe that's what we're striving for in our workspace is I want to try out this thing, but I'm not really good at it. And if I fail, can somebody else help me or can somebody try? And is there lack of judgment?
Shamby Polychronis (16:54):
And I think this question really gets at that is when it's not safe to be who you are in practice, and maybe not be amazing at something, but want to get better. If you're feeling judged and you're just performing at 110% all the time, your dignity flies out the window. It's too long of a day. We spend too much time at work to not feel like we're doing a good job or contributing. And where does that come from?
Annalisa Holcombe (17:20):
Yeah. I think it's important that you talked about the family thing, because I worked in a situation where I really felt like it was family. And it turned out to be these relationships from years ago are still relationships that I cultivate and still relationships that matter deeply to me, and that people do and their families do and their joys do. It is like that. It wasn't just. And in fact, this is funny, because about a week ago, I had one of my own employees send me an email about how important it was to them to have a difficult conversation with me as their leader, and that they were going to call up all their courage and be vulnerable and tell me what they need from me. And what was funny is, so here's the employee saying it to me, and I can only imagine how brave that must have felt to be that employee. Also, here's an interesting thing, I was also scared to death, like what is it that this employee feels they need to tell me that I must be doing so wrong as their leader? What am I doing wrong? Oh, no.
Annalisa Holcombe (18:29):
This was a really scary moment for both of us to show up to. And of course, I used all the Brene Brown language that I could get. I'm like, okay, show up without my armor, don't try to respond, I'm just going to listen to what this person has to say. And if I need to stop, I'll just say, "I'm here to listen." If I don't know an answer to what this person's asking me, then I'm going to just say, "I don't know the answer yet, let me hold onto this, because I want to honor it." So I was trying to do all the things and it turned out to be lovely, but that those moments are so important.
Annalisa Holcombe (19:07):
And by the way, they also are... When that person sent me the email, they said, "It's important to me that we think critically about our working relationship." And I had this reaction to working relationship, and I still do, because I think, why do we have to have that qualifier on it? Isn't it just a relationship? And I push up against it. It is a relationship. It just happens to be a relationship that happens at work. But to say that a working relationship, it somehow demotes it in terms of your relations. And I don't know that, that's appropriate, because we spend so much time at work that those relationships, those working relationships are the ones we have the most and they're affecting our lives the most. So for this employee, that working relationship with the boss, which is me, is a significant part of their lives. And we should really communicate that.
Annalisa Holcombe (20:20):
So when we talk about work as family, I've experienced that and have had wonderful parts about it. What you talked about before is the shadow side of that. But I think that there's a shadow side to everything. So let's not overreact. It's like when the pendulum swings, there is a lovely place in the middle between what's appropriate when you think about your colleagues as family that is either not so family that you share hotel rooms when you travel. And so not family that you have no idea if they're sick today or if they're sick or if they're going through cancer treatment. We should know. There should be a nice level of I care about you as a human. I spent all this time with you, and I want to know you.
Shamby Polychronis (21:14):
Well, I so appreciate that you invited that conversation too and nurtured that. I think it's so bred into us that we should naturally be skeptical of feedback and criticism, but the fact that anyone's even brave enough to say, "Hey, to pause, can we chat?" That's credit. That's something to give. And it also shows that they value your relationship enough to make it better. It would be easier to walk out. It'd be easier to go get another job. It would be easier just not to have that conversation and let it fizzle. And yet our first reaction is, "Oh, no, what have we done?" Yeah.
Annalisa Holcombe (21:59):
Yeah. But that's vulnerable for everybody involved. We are vulnerable. Every day we show up to work, there's the fear that we could be doing something that is harmful to another person that we care about at work. And that's okay, because we're trying. And in fact, it is. We are vulnerable and we could be doing that. But if we've created, which takes a ton of work, a place of psychological safety where someone can say, "Hey, this hurts me when you do that," good to know, I'm so sorry.
Shamby Polychronis (22:37):
Right. And half the time you have to tamper yourself back a little bit and be like, "Don't respond," because your initial response is, "Well, but that's not what I meant." Or to be defensive that would shut it down-
Annalisa Holcombe (22:48):
Yeah, exactly.
Shamby Polychronis (22:50):
And be like, "Wow, let me think about that for a minute." That's hard for you.
Annalisa Holcombe (22:55):
And to say the very first thing, which is, I am so honored that you have the courage to tell me that.
Shamby Polychronis (23:05):
But one of the big takeaways I think definitely for me is just this idea that even the most vulnerable people aren't vulnerable all the time, and it's really important to gauge that. And when we're hurt by somebody, it might take us even more to get comfortable the next time. It's not this layer of 80%. After 24 hours, I feel very vulnerable with people. It layers.
Annalisa Holcombe (23:32):
Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think we talk about that in our personal lives as if it's a given. Oh, you were hurt in your last relationship, so, of course, you're going to be more guarded in your new relationship. We talk about all the time. But that's real in all relationships, even when they're the "working relationships." You can be hurt at work and it can affect how you relate to people at work. So we're still all human all the time.
Shamby Polychronis (23:58):
Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's so important. And it's not to say that you wouldn't be vulnerable again. It's just to say that people do have to earn it a little bit more.
Annalisa Holcombe (24:10):
Yeah.
Shamby Polychronis (24:11):
So you mentioned weaponizing a couple of times, weaponizing vulnerability. And has that been used against you in a way that you can share or cautions that you have for other people, especially if somebody's not comfortable being vulnerable? You probably have several listeners that aren't comfortable being vulnerable and are looking for like I want to be that person that's vulnerable. What would be some of those cautionary tells you could tell them or tips that you give them?
Annalisa Holcombe (24:40):
One of the things I've been thinking about with this is that I suspect I could be wrong. But I suspect that individuals who listen to this podcast are more comfortable with their vulnerability than individuals who would say, "Why in the world would I spend an hour listen to somebody talking about vulnerability? That's crazy." But both of those people are good and important and we are in relationships with both of those types of people. All of us are. I just think that for our listeners, you can't demand vulnerability from another person, you have to think about at it as providing the psychological safety. And Brene Brown calls it building the container. You have to build a container for someone to feel safe enough to let themselves be seen, all of themselves. And that's super scary. I think it's the scariest thing we do.
Annalisa Holcombe (25:49):
So to right away expect someone to do that is not okay. Right away we shouldn't do that. And it is that dance that is always going to be trust and vulnerability and communication, and trust and vulnerability and communication, and a little bit and a little bit and a little bit, and pretty soon you have a great container where you can fully be vulnerable with someone. I think that's limited in your life where there are people who so see you, they know all of you. And I think that's appropriate. I think that it's right to only have a few people that really, really know the whole thing or see the whole thing. But it's also important to cultivate those people and make sure that there are some in your life and that you're not alone.
Shamby Polychronis (26:42):
I so appreciate that, because it does go to one of the questions that was asked, which is, "Hey, how can I make my partner share more with me? How can I make them be more vulnerable?" And your answer is perfect. It's like you've got to create a space for them, you can't just demand it of people. And I think that's really important. There's several of us that are extroverts. We share a lot or we're very vocal. And sometimes it's hard to give people time and space to be comfortable, but so important if you're really going to get to know who they are, right?
Annalisa Holcombe (27:16):
Yeah. And your level, what you think about in terms of this is what vulnerability looks like for me. And for you it might be, I'm going to tell you about my childhood trauma and I know you for a week. And for somebody else, they might be like, "Whoa, I am not ready for that. We have not created a container where that makes sense for me." And so if that person that you're in a relationship with gives you a little glimpse of something, that might be crazy vulnerability for them. And so for them to be like, "I am going to tell you about when my teacher in 10th grade said this thing to me," that might be as hard for them to say as it was for you to say some big giant childhood trauma. But that's where that trust and communication loop is to make sure that I see you and I see that trauma and we can never lessen somebody's vulnerability.
Annalisa Holcombe (28:13):
If we tell somebody else that their vulnerability isn't as big as my vulnerability, that's not okay, that's not the same. Everybody gets to sit in own vulnerability and their own courage, and we should approach it with that curiosity and with that compassion and empathy. So all these things we talk about, they play into vulnerability so much. And especially when we're having those, especially with relationships that we care about.
Annalisa Holcombe (28:53):
If you're interested in the subject of vulnerability, you can also listen to a prior interview on this podcast with Jim Carter in season one. I really want to thank several of our listeners and our special connectors for submitting questions for me. A big shout out to Sarah Pike, Ge Santos, Life Taylor, Gary Danes, and Lexie Banks. Thank you so much for taking the time to help us craft the right questions about vulnerability. Now, let's just jump back into this interview.
Shamby Polychronis (29:40):
Well, this question goes back to maybe a little more processing on your side, about the podcast, about your intents behind the podcast and why you even started it. So this comes from another listener and it's Brene also said, "I only share when I have no unmet needs that need to be filled. I firmly believe being vulnerable with a larger audience is only a good idea if the healing is tied to sharing, not the expectations I might have for the response I get." So for you, in creating the podcast, does this ring true? And has engaging in these discussions healed you in any ways?
Annalisa Holcombe (30:18):
Oh my gosh! So I say it sometimes jokingly, but it's actually really true that this podcast is super selfish of me. And I acknowledge that. I get so much out of it. And I get it in the way that my... I say this that in creating AMP, I had no idea that those Saturday sessions and those honest conversations about really big subject matters like fear or compassion or empathy or vulnerability would impact me in the ways that they did. And the learning that I got from our guest speakers or from our college students who had something to say was so meaningful to me and grounded me in ways that I had no ability... I didn't know that I needed it to be grounded, but it really grounded me so that I could see I had clarity about what I believe and what my values are and what my priorities are and how I want to like, oh, this is the direction I want to go.
Annalisa Holcombe (31:23):
And what I found is after I didn't have AMP, it got jumbled for me. And I think it gets jumbled really easily if we're not really intentional. And so yes, this is a place that has some selfishness for me, because every time I talk to somebody on the podcast, I learn something, not just about them, but about myself. And I have something I can put to work in my own life. I think, "Oh, I can do this thing." Even right now when we were talking, just before this when I was talking about my staff member who reached out to me, as I was saying, I thought, "I need to send them a thank you note." I haven't sent them a thank you note since then. I need to acknowledge them.
Annalisa Holcombe (32:16):
And I get that every time where I'm like, "Oh, I can put this to work right now." And so yes, that's selfish. Second, I'm really hopeful that other people are getting similar things, that they're listening to it actively, because there's something you can get from it potentially. Really, if you're self reflecting while you listen, yeah, this is a service and I think. And then third, the vulnerability. People are being vulnerable and I'm being vulnerable and asking the questions, but I'm also not weaponizing my vulnerability in these. I'm not saying, "Here's everything you need to know about me and my life." If it makes sense in the context, I might say it, but I might not. I might think, "This isn't appropriate for you."
Shamby Polychronis (33:12):
Yeah. Isn't that fascinating? You never know what you're going to take away. I've got to say my experience on these podcasts and also in AMP has very much... I think I've walked away with a bigger benefit than I provided to these groups. But one of the things that was so important for me was this idea that people almost go through a season. And I think being in higher ed, we get usually an academic school year with somebody. And it's almost after the holidays, so about this time, that they come back and they start being more vulnerable. And all of a sudden your heart breaks open a little bit for even the tough ones, the ones that gave those answers that you didn't love, the ones that you're like, "Whoa, I wouldn't want to spend much time with at this person." And then all of a sudden, once they are vulnerable and you see this is where that answer came from and it's a trauma response or it's what their dad would've wished they would say or it's who they think they need to present, that's been highly important for me to learn is I have to work through that to get through their vulnerabilities before I judge people, which is really hard. We don't have relationships that we get a year at least with. Not all the time. Yeah.
Shamby Polychronis (34:30):
How do you do vulnerability in shorter meetings with people? Is there a way that you can do it without getting into their personal lives and all of those things? What ways do you engage authentically as a leader in those one off kinds of meetings with a funder or a future student that you may or may not see again? How do you engage in that way?
Annalisa Holcombe (34:56):
Wow, that's a good question. My initial thought is I think the way that I right off the bat do that is that I do my very best to show up to meetings. Or meetings engagements really open, and especially open to expressing joy. I think that we don't talk enough about how expressing your passion and your joy of... And I think it might actually be the passion piece, because we edit our passion. And to show up to something and say like, "Oh my gosh, I feel like this is so meaningful to me," and to really show up with that full emotion, that full passion like this matters to me, because usually at work, and especially if we're working in a situation that we do get to feel passionate about to open up that emotion so that it's okay for somebody else to join in with you, because we often approach things in business as business like, "Here's the thing we need to accomplish, blah, blah, blah," but I work hard in my connections with people to always get to the why, always.
Annalisa Holcombe (36:32):
And I really notice if I'm in a meeting like an initial meeting with someone, if there is some type of initial trust that someone's offering me, that allows me to express my passion. And so I personally really think a lot about that, about how am I showing up and asking people and giving them the freedom to express their passion. So I guess that's how I do it in short spurts is really more focused on allowing people to talk about their why.
Shamby Polychronis (37:10):
Yeah. I think that's really important. And the next question, I think you've started getting at that too is what do you do differently in your teams? These are folks that you are with for a long period of time, how does vulnerability look on a team that you are dealing with all the time? And to some degree there's risk there, I know personally if I know I'm never going to see another person, I don't really care what they think of me, I don't care if I say the right things. It doesn't matter. But someone I know I'm going to have a really important relationship with for a long time, I stumble, I bumble, I worry if I present myself well. So how do you cultivate that vulnerability in teaming?
Annalisa Holcombe (37:58):
Oh my goodness, I'm struggling with it right now. So let's just acknowledge that there's so much to that. And it's really interesting, because I think it's worth knowing that there is of course an inherent structural difference between someone who is an employee and someone who is a leader and the vulnerability that they feel. I think that's important to acknowledge right off the bat. And where I sit currently in my work, structurally I'm the leader. And so it's a different type of vulnerability. And I'm trying really hard to sit with my own empathy about what it feels like to be the people who report up through me.
Annalisa Holcombe (38:44):
And I think that our society is so not built for that, that part of me just trying to up a system in which I say out loud in my teams, "That is hard, I don't know the answer yet, let's sit down and work on this." Or especially this, when I say this culture, because we're now working on our team culture, and I'm like, "This is ours to solve." And I'm getting push back from my team like, "Why aren't we bringing in the HR department to solve it?" And I have to sit in empathy with my team members and say, okay, I get why they're saying this, because for me I'm like, "Because you can't outsource culture, we're going to have to figure it out." Nobody's coming to save us, we can only save ourselves. And so there's no cliff notes for this and there's no... It's just going through it. It's establishing that trust and having these difficult conversations and working through the muck of this, but I'm invested with you and we're going to do it.
Annalisa Holcombe (39:52):
And so I think that long term is super iterative. And you'll take a couple steps forward and a couple steps back on a team. But I do think that setting it up with not being my blah, here's all my stuff as a leader or as an employee, but taking a little step of vulnerability, seeing if some communication happens, seeing if you feel a little more trust and then level setting, maybe you raise a little bit and then you do it again. And maybe you raise a little bit or maybe you go down a step and then you got to try again. And I think it's that. I think it just like in long term relationships, it is that dance. And I think the dance is vulnerability, trust, communication, or I guess it goes vulnerability, communication, trust, or it might go communication, trust, vulnerability. It's linked. There's no chicken and egg. It's all in it together.
Shamby Polychronis (40:48):
I think it's so important. It keeps going back. I think the theme of this conversation has been relationships are relationships. And there's this honeymoon phase even with employment relationships, these "work relationships" where you get in, you're like, "I love this culture, my boss is great, I get acknowledged." But at some point in time, you're going to experience disappointment, you're going to experience conflict and it's how do you work through it. And there's no magic checklist. There's no bringing in HR. I'm sure they have their place, but if you're trying to work on culture, it's the relationship you're building. You're working through misunderstandings and conflict, and that's really hard.
Annalisa Holcombe (41:34):
And feelings. We pretend that feelings don't happen at work and they happen all day long. We're human.
Shamby Polychronis (41:41):
Yeah. I don't know where we picked up this message that, that's your personal life. It's like this is my work life, it's now influencing my personal life. Right?
Annalisa Holcombe (41:50):
Actually, it's just my life. I have it all day long every day.
Shamby Polychronis (41:54):
Yeah. I think same thing you ask your family. Most of our families and the people we with and have dinners with and associate with, they know about our work lives. There's no unmeshing, especially now, which I'm curious. Here we are, we're going into our third season of the pandemic, so I'm thinking out loud about, do you think by seeing people's homes and their lives in Zoom, a lot of us, do you think there's more or less vulnerability with the way that we're working currently?
Annalisa Holcombe (42:35):
I actually think there's more. I think that we don't have... And this can be privileged too. So I think it's really important to acknowledge that, because when we get up and go to work, we have the ability to curate how we show up. You have that commute time to get yourself in order, you have the particular work clothes you wear for work that when it's on Zoom and we show our backgrounds, you can see the stuff around you, you can hear the dog bark at the mailman, and especially for all the parents who had their children home during the time, you can see their kids there or their spouse there. And I think people gave each other a ton of grace during that time. And actually it was super meaningful.
Annalisa Holcombe (43:30):
I'll always remember I had this opportunity to have a Zoom call with a hero of mine who was at his house in Washington, DC. And I am so privileged that I got to have this conversation. And I could see that he was doing this call from his mudroom. As a regular person that has a mudroom that has his kids clothes, flung behind him and the lunchbox with his kids name on it. And I was like, "He's just a regular dad doing the stuff that parents do around the country every day." And somehow that grounds us when we see each other doing those things.
Annalisa Holcombe (44:13):
I'm a little worried that as we start talking post pandemic, which I don't know if there's such a thing, but I think that it will be so important. And I think this is why we're seeing this idea of the great resignation is that people want to have that grace given to them as whole people. The stuff we've been talking about on 92,000 Hours all this time like I'm a whole person. I think people are like, "I'm not willing to show up differently, I want someone to see me."
Shamby Polychronis (44:46):
Yes, I agree. I think you're right. I think in some ways, once again, these topics aren't just standalone topics. And in where we are more vulnerable, people can see inside my space, people know what my family sounds, like what my dog spark sounds like. We're more vulnerable. But it's also pushed us to have more solid boundaries and say like, "Look, I don't even have a good excuse, I can't even lie to you, I can't say I was pulled over, I wasn't driving, but I just don't want to anymore. Past 5:00, my brain quits working. I have to say no to that." It's the most boundaries I've ever put on anything ever in my whole life, which is so bizarre to me. You think we're more flexible, but I think in a lot of ways being more vulnerable makes us say, "I've gotta protect the side of me too."
Annalisa Holcombe (45:35):
Yes. I think that's absolutely right. And I think protect ourselves and demanding more of our workplaces is a really good thing coming out of this.
Shamby Polychronis (45:47):
Absolutely. I know there's people that predict stuff like this. I'm just not one of them. But I could definitely go down that path of seeing all the negative horrible things. But on the flip side, it's like, "Hey, I think this stuff was all boiling up to the top and we're all there and this just caused it to just come to the surface and now we're needing to address it." And if there's ever a time for vulnerability, it's going to be now. We all have to be honest about what we're bringing to the table now that we're changing expectations for ourselves and our workspaces and the people we work with. And we've got to be honest about that. Just changing work culture doesn't always fix it. Sometimes it does, but not often. Sometimes you just drag it into the next space with you. Right?
Annalisa Holcombe (46:31):
Yeah. It makes me think of... So one of the reasons why we're airing this episode on the day that my youngest daughter is going in for heart surgery. And so when you think about... So this is the place where people can understand that acute feeling of vulnerability. And because we talk out vulnerability, we have to just acknowledge that having a child is super vulnerable. And that whole like there's another human walking around with your heart. That's super scary. You feel really vulnerable all the time. And it's a place where, for me, the thought that somebody's going to then be operating on her heart is terrifying. I'm trying not to think about it, because it's so terrifying. Even though I know we're most likely going to be just fine and it's going to be great afterwards, but there's that little chance. But I think that, that's this bigger picture of how all vulnerability feels. It's just that people can give you it for your child in ways that they may not give it to you for how it feels to go to work or how it feels to start a romance, because still that feeling is real.
Annalisa Holcombe (48:00):
But the boundaries are important, and I'm feeling it right now at work. There's this pressure at my workplace too, especially amongst the senior leaders that we should show up in person. And I have some discomfort with that, because I'm not sure I trust that I'm going to be okay physically. But boy, having a situation like your child being potentially in real danger allows you to just go like, "Here's my boundary period, if you don't like it, I'm leaving." And the more we can find ways to do that, even when it's not something as serious and critical about your kids' health, but if there is an opportunity... But I get that I get to say this from a place of privilege, even though I'm terrified that I wouldn't find another job, because we all are like that like, "Oh my gosh, I might never find another job."
Annalisa Holcombe (49:02):
I think really understanding where that line is for you and what that boundary looks like, I think we all wait until somebody's crossed it sometimes. Not all of us, but we sometimes wait until it's been crossed and then we're mad. And then we quit our job or leave the relationship and to put in the work before to understand, "Oh, this is where my boundary is and I see it creeping up." There might be a way to salvage some things. If you're able to say, "Hey, we're getting close to my boundary and it's not going to be okay with me." Can you imagine if we were able to do that more, but that takes a lot of self knowledge.
Shamby Polychronis (49:40):
It's like pre-conflict resolution, right?
Annalisa Holcombe (49:42):
Yeah.
Shamby Polychronis (49:42):
You're saying, "Hey, we're tiptoeing right here in some territory. Let's not go there." And you're right. I think we're so nervous about what that will do. And then you just think, "Well, I'll just leave." But it doesn't get you anywhere. But I think you're right. Once again, it's with those boundaries and how important they are. And I'm really grateful that you were vulnerable and brought up your daughter's surgery, because how scary one and we're all thinking of you, of course. And you're right, she's going to be fine and just don't listen to news or Google anything and you'll be fine. But also the flip side of that and vulnerability is the most vulnerable you can be is when you're in a situation where, one, you're helpless and you can't control a situation. And you're hoping that all the experts come to the table like they should that day. And then you need help. You're going to have to have someone fill in for you or be patient with you as you help her feel better and get through what she needs to get through.
Shamby Polychronis (50:50):
So can you talk a little bit about how vulnerable you felt definitely through the history of your daughter's complications, but also then did that pay off, being vulnerable, asking for help saying, I can't be here for that? Does that end up paying off?
Annalisa Holcombe (51:10):
Yes, it pays off so much. It's funny that we put those and I'm definitely guilty of it, is like people aren't going to be there for you or you've got to do it yourself. But when you open up to someone about like, "Hey, I'm really scared and I'm not sure I'm going to be okay and I could use your help," people are there. I was just reading this article. And I think especially when it comes to health, and the reason why is because I think every single person has somebody they love who they worry about their health. And that's a place where every single person can have empathy for you. It's not like you're a boss or you are a Democrat or you're a Republican or you're a mom or you're a child. You have a person you love. Every one of us can be like, "Oh, that would be hard."
Annalisa Holcombe (52:14):
And I was reading this article, I'm doing this work with regard to... This feels weird to even mention, but I'm doing this work with regard to Mike Leavitt for my job. And I was reading this he put forth a paper when he was Secretary of Health and Human Services. And he said that he believes the very most important thing that America can do for diplomacy is health diplomacy. And he said by going into the world and having Americans help other countries with health disparities in those countries, we do more than any other work that could happen within the secretary of state's office. And I was thinking about that. He said something like because our health is heard through our hearts and we all love someone, every single person in the world loves someone. And we are all worried about somebody else's health.
Annalisa Holcombe (53:15):
So those conversations about if somebody you know has cancer, if somebody you know has a heart attack, we all feel it, because it's an easy place to understand what that vulnerability feels like. And we all have to deal with that by opening up and saying, "Hi, everyone, I'm having this struggle." People have been really kind to me, crazy kind. I don't mean to say crazy. That's a terrible word to say, because what I don't mean is crazy, I mean abundantly kind. People are so willing to provide you with almost anything you need when it comes to really deep relatable vulnerability. Now, if we could just do that more with the kind that isn't as relatable, that would be fair.
Shamby Polychronis (54:11):
Yeah, that's harder. Yeah, absolutely. Is there anything else you'd like to share with vulnerability?
Annalisa Holcombe (54:18):
I don't think so. I think that we've went through a whole round circle, which has been really good. But I think just important thing that being vulnerable is a fact. We are, you are, everybody listening is vulnerable right this minute right now. And so it's just how we hold that and whether we let vulnerability rule us or whether we are able to say, "I see you vulnerability, and I know you're there, you're my companion and we're going to go through this, I'm going to be brave and go through this, anyway."
Shamby Polychronis (55:08):
I think that's so interesting to think of it, almost as a partnership with something that we thought as an enemy almost, right?
Annalisa Holcombe (55:16):
Yeah.
Shamby Polychronis (55:17):
This is really important partnership.
Annalisa Holcombe (55:19):
Yeah, exactly.
Shamby Polychronis (55:21):
I love it.
Annalisa Holcombe (55:22):
Thank you.
Shamby Polychronis (55:24):
And what a pleasure it is to be able to interview the podcaster for this podcast! What an honor!
Annalisa Holcombe (55:34):
That's because you're the rock star of all things 92,000 Hours and Amp and you're willing to be vulnerable in your questioning. So thank you.
Shamby Polychronis (55:47):
Absolutely. It's absolutely my pleasure.
Annalisa Holcombe (56:04):
(silence)
Annalisa Holcombe (56:15):
My deep gratitude to Shamby Polychronis for this interview. She is not only a dear friend, but also a great collaborator. Her thoughtfulness and intuitive ability to engage deeply and authentically provided just the right container of care and safety I needed. If you want to hear my more from her, you can catch her episode on resilience in season two. Next week, I'll be joined by Nicole Palmer, leader, educator, ally and mom. She'll talk about building community, especially as a school principal and how she has handled the outside influence of protests, but also support by keeping the children at the heart of what she does each day. I hope you'll join us.