Ep 33: Trust Workshop
92,000 Hours
Welcome to season 4 of 92,000 Hours! This season, we’re putting everything we have learned from past episodes into practice in our own lives. Each week, we will dive into specific topics and ask you to reflect and take action. Get out your notebooks, because this season requires a lot of self reflection!
This week's topic is trust. What does trust mean to you? When do you extend trust to others? Does trust play a different role in your personal and professional life? Are you trustworthy? And finally, do you trust yourself?
These are all questions we ask you this episode. We will also hear from listeners like you who have called in and left voicemails about what trust means to them.
If you want to leave us a voicemail about your thoughts on this episode, or our next episode's topic (vulnerability), call us! Our number is 385-501-7333.
Transcript
Annalisa Holcombe: (00:09)
Welcome to season four of the 92,000 Hours podcast. I'm your host Annalisa Holcombe. This is the podcast where we acknowledge that we spend a majority of our lives, 92,000 hours at work during a lifetime. This is far more than we do anything else except sleeping. And our constant connectivity to our jobs means that number is growing. That is an enormous slice of life. But what if those 92,000 hours were full of meaning, passion, and purpose? How do we construct a working world that values and accommodates our humanity? How do we construct a life that is not separate from, but fueled by the purpose we find in our work?
Annalisa Holcombe: (00:52)
In the first three seasons of this podcast, we have engaged in deep conversations with individuals we consider to be experts next door. This season, we are doing something different. We're providing real how-to info about what happens when we really engage these questions.
Annalisa Holcombe: (01:09)
Instead of asking questions of my podcast guests, I'm asking you. Now, if you're cooking dinner or driving or going on a walk while listening, that's okay. Sometimes we need to multitask, but if you have the space and time, this episode, and in fact, this whole season is best if you can sit down and engage more directly. Get out a pen and paper, or open up a word doc and reflect, pause the podcast when you need, go back to something when you want to reflect more, but give yourself this gift.
Annalisa Holcombe: (01:42)
And I have to tell, you this season is actually really scary for me. While I've done this work for nearly two decades, I have never done this in such an open way. This work is deeply vulnerable, and I won't be able to tell if you're all engaged or not. So I'll be asking you to give us a call and leave us a voicemail message with your answers to the questions we explore. One thing I know for sure from this work, we all get more out of it when we learn from each other.
Annalisa Holcombe: (02:21)
So, let's dive in. We begin with an exploration of trust. Why? Because trust is central to the process of uncovering meaning and purpose in our lives. Over the years, I have always begun the conversation about trust by asking participants and here asking you, how do you define trust? What does it mean to you? I encourage you right now to pause this podcast and reflect, how do you define trust? Not a textbook answer, but something more free-flowing and honest for you? Take a minute. I'll wait.
Annalisa Holcombe: (03:17)
Now, what did you say? Over the years, I've heard many answers and particularly, when I speak to young adults, they often begin by talking about betrayal, and when their trust in someone or something was broken. Here are some answers from two people that called in this week.
Speaker 2: (03:38)
The concept of trust is very interesting for me to think about because it's actually played a central part in my life, and it's definitely been a theme that's been connected to a lot of the behavioral patterns that I've had throughout my life, whether it was as a kid and up until now as an adult. But I would say that trust is something that I didn't really feel was afforded to me too much as a child and for context, and to be fair, it was because I did lie to my parents and my family a lot. But the reason why I would lie so much is because, as a kid, I've just always had a very clear idea of what I wanted out of my life, and what I wanted my life to look like, and the way that I wanted to live my life.
Speaker 2: (04:30)
And while I'm really grateful to my family for just everything that they've given me and the love that they've given me, at the same time, there were definitely moments where I did not feel like they trusted me to make all of the decisions for myself. And so, there was a lot of clashing happening and there was a lot of butting heads, and there were a lot of times when I just felt restricted simply. Anyone who knows me knows that is my biggest pet peeve. I hate being restricted by anything. I can tolerate being restricted by myself because then I can change that, but when other people restrict me, that drives me up the wall.
Speaker 2: (05:13)
And so, what I did as a result was I would just do whatever the hell I wanted, and I would lie to my parents and that did not stop really until I entered college, and I had my own sense of independence. But because of that, I didn't really ever feel like people trusted me because my parents never trusted me when I grew up. And I realized that that affected the ways in which I interacted with other people because up until very recently, whenever I would be explaining something to people, I would always feel like I had to go the extra mile to explain myself, to make sure that I come across as someone who is credible or that they can trust me.
Speaker 2: (06:02)
And I realized that a lot of that just came from my experiences growing up. And I decided recently though, that I'm not going to do that anymore. And I've actually stopped explaining myself, and it's been very liberating because it's helped me remind myself that I don't have to explain myself to anyone. And also, for the majority of the time, people aren't expecting more of an explanation from me, I'm just projecting that onto the situation.
Speaker 3: (06:43)
I guess I define trust as being able to give control over to others, whether that be family, friends, or significant other, and I'll have that expectation that they'll do what's in my best interest, but also their own and everyone else around them. I think a key factor to my trust also stems from control because I am a grade A control freak. So, if there's someone that I trust enough to take over control of anything, whatever, not anything. But that's what it is. Trust, I guess, giving up control in a way. Yeah.
Annalisa Holcombe: (07:45)
How do these answers resonate for you? Did your definition of trust stem from childhood experience? How do experiences of not being trusted by people we love affect our own interactions with trust as we grow and mature? Did the link between trust and control spark something in you? Well, this all resonates with me. When I was a child, I was sexually assaulted by my well-respected elementary school teacher. My distrust of authority and systems runs deep from that experience. Understanding that has helped me identify when my trust radar is real, and when it's just that it has been triggered because of that experience. As a result, I also definitely have issues with control. I'm a leader at work, I'm in my 50s. And just recently, a few weeks ago, I had an epiphany about this. I became curious about my own inherent need to be liked and likable and realized that my need to be liked is actually a way I've been trying to control pain or difficult experiences in the workplace. In fact, in a previous podcast episode, our guest Gary Daynes specifically talked about contextual trust in the workplace. Have a listen.
Gary Daynes: (09:04)
I think trust means two contradictory things at the same time, or that is we use the word trust to actually refer to two things that are opposites of each other. So in an institutional setting, when a person says that they trust another person, it usually means that person will do what I want them to do or what I expect them to do, so they know the rules, so I can trust them. Right? So this is often what happens in a hierarchy where a boss says to somebody who works for them, "I trust you." Really what they're saying is I know that you're going to do, you'll stand in for me. You'll do what I was going to do. You'll follow the rules, you'll behave, so I can trust you. I don't need to pay attention because you're going to do what you're supposed to do.
Gary Daynes: (09:48)
So it's one usage of the word trust, and it's probably the more common usage of the word trust. But you can see what in there is really also distrust.
Annalisa Holcombe: (10:01)
Yeah.
Gary Daynes: (10:02)
In fact, we build systems around that kind of trust to make sure that the person stays in the lines. So in a work setting, if you're running a restaurant, you trust your night manager to obey the rules, but there's also this whole system of surveillance to make sure that they're obeying the rules. And then, you get evaluated on your ability to obey the rules and stuff. So, there's a form of trust that's really about, I think, predictability and control.
Annalisa Holcombe: (10:30)
Yeah.
Gary Daynes: (10:31)
And then there's another form of trust, which is I trust that things will work out the way that they're supposed to work out, or I trust you so completely as a person that I believe that the decisions that you'll make with integrity and with the best interests of our organization in mind.
Gary Daynes: (10:54)
And that's a trust that's based in letting go of control in just believing, imagining, hoping that there's some kind of a logic or a direction to the way the good relationships point, or that the universe points to use kind of faith language. That me means that in the big picture, things are going to work out okay if you let go, if you trust that person to do their thing to use their best gifts, to make decisions that you wouldn't necessarily make.
Annalisa Holcombe: (11:32)
Yeah.
Gary Daynes: (11:32)
That's different from that other kind of trust, right?
Annalisa Holcombe: (11:34)
Absolutely.
Gary Daynes: (11:35)
But we use the word trust to mean both of those things simultaneously or we can use it in a confusing sort of way.
Annalisa Holcombe: (11:41)
What do you think about this? Gary says there are two types of trust. One is about reliability and control. And the other is about letting go of control. The second is trusting that things will work out and trusting our friends and colleagues as people to make decisions with integrity. And I think this conversation begs the question, when did you extend trust? How does that differ depending on the context? Does it differ in your personal and professional relationships? How? Why? Here are two of our listeners.
Speaker 2: (12:17)
I would say that instinctually, I am a trusting person. I've always been like that. For the most part, I just give trust automatically to everyone who I meet and then, down the line, if their actions make me realize that they can't be trusted, that trust is taken away. However, in moments where I am insecure or feeling out of control or triggered in any way, I've noticed that if I'm specifically dealing with someone in a situation, oftentimes, my mind will go to a place where I think, "Oh my God, what if they go behind my back? Or what if they do something that will shatter my trust in them or do something that's untrustworthy?" And I think that's really interesting that that's where my mind goes to.
Speaker 2: (13:06)
But I would say that when I am at my most grounded and when I am solid and confident in myself, the trust flows out effortlessly. And I think that the effortlessness applies to everyone in my life. Obviously, trust can look a little differently with the different people that you have in your life based on situational and contextual factors, for example. But even then, I don't think it's really a matter of trust. It's just a matter of what's appropriate for the situation. Like I would never tell my coworkers my deepest darkest secrets, or I would never go into detail about family problems that I'm having, but it's not because I don't think I can trust them, it's because that's just not an appropriate conversation to have on slack while you're working.
Speaker 2: (14:08)
So I don't know if trust really differs with the people that you interact with. I just think that the type of trust that you're asking for is affected by the context and the situation.
Speaker 3: (14:26)
I think in regard to work, I'm trustworthy in the fact I want to move my own political agenda that fits my value system. So, I'm trustworthy to people that fit those values. But if I see my trustworthiness as getting in the way of moving my agenda, I'll lie to reinforce the agenda I think is necessary. In regard to personal life, I think I'm too absurdly honest, which maybe isn't trustworthy, but I feel like you can conflate the two if you want.
Annalisa Holcombe: (15:15)
In her book, Daring Greatly, and in many other instances, Dr. Brené Brown talks about the concept of the marble jar. I'm going to paraphrase here, but in essence, it means that each interaction that builds trust in our relationships and with each other is like putting a single marble in a jar. Eventually over time, our marble jar with that individual is full. And interestingly, the marbles are almost always the really very small things, the times that we have connected or shown interest or been kind in really simple ways. Filling that marble jar of trust is all about the little things and their consistency over time. On the other hand, if we betray someone, we spill that marble jar, and we all have to work really hard again over time, little by little, to fill it.
Annalisa Holcombe: (16:14)
So now, it's your time to go do your homework. And here's what I'd like you to do. First, go back and listen again. Throughout this episode, I have asked questions about trust. We've included those questions and even more, as a companion to this episode and a cell of reflection worksheet, you can find it in our connection collaborative blog at www.connectioncollaborative.com/blog.
Annalisa Holcombe: (16:44)
Second, listen to the 92,000 Hours episode on trust with Gary Daynes, you can find it within season one. And third, you can go in and complete the trust quotient assessment developed by the company trusted advisor. It will give you, for free, your own trust quotient. You can find it at trustsuite.trustedadvisor.com.
Annalisa Holcombe: (17:14)
And finally, we need your responses. What are your answers to those questions? Any of the questions I asked in this podcast or any that are included in our companion worksheet, you can call and leave your answers on our voicemail by calling 385-501-7333. You may hear your voice on our next episode. And speaking of the next episode, we're going to continue this work.
Annalisa Holcombe: (17:43)
Next time, we're focusing on courage and vulnerability. And if you're willing, I'd love to feature a few of your voices on our next episode. What are your answers to the following questions? First, when you think of vulnerability, what comes to your mind? Do you think of courage or weakness, and why? Second, has vulnerability ever led to greater engagement or deeper connection for you? If so, in what way? And finally, do you think that there is room for courage and vulnerability in our national discourse? If you saw a leader exhibit those traits, how would you react?
Annalisa Holcombe: (18:30)
We are looking forward to hearing from you. Give us a call and leave a voicemail. Again, our number is 385-501-7333. And we will have that listed in the show notes. Or you can email me directly with your answers at Annalisa@connectioncollaborative.com. We're so excited to engage in this work with you and to learn about ourselves, our relationships, our workplaces, and our communities together.
Annalisa Holcombe: (19:46)
As always, thank you for listening to 92,000 Hours. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review. We really appreciate the support. If you're interested in learning more about our work, please visit our website at connectioncollaborative.com or follow us on social media. We're everywhere now, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and even TikTok. We'd like to thank everyone who's called in and left us a voicemail. And if you haven't called, we'd love to hear from you. Our number again is 385-501-7333. Thank you and see you next week on 92,000 Hours.
Annalisa Holcombe: (20:43)
This episode was produced and edited by Breanna Steggell. Lexie Banks assists us with show notes and transcripts. And I'm your host, Annalisa Holcombe.
Annalisa Holcombe: (00:09)
Welcome to season four of the 92,000 Hours podcast. I'm your host Annalisa Holcombe. This is the podcast where we acknowledge that we spend a majority of our lives, 92,000 hours at work during a lifetime. This is far more than we do anything else except sleeping. And our constant connectivity to our jobs means that number is growing. That is an enormous slice of life. But what if those 92,000 hours were full of meaning, passion, and purpose? How do we construct a working world that values and accommodates our humanity? How do we construct a life that is not separate from, but fueled by the purpose we find in our work?
Annalisa Holcombe: (00:52)
In the first three seasons of this podcast, we have engaged in deep conversations with individuals we consider to be experts next door. This season, we are doing something different. We're providing real how-to info about what happens when we really engage these questions.
Annalisa Holcombe: (01:09)
Instead of asking questions of my podcast guests, I'm asking you. Now, if you're cooking dinner or driving or going on a walk while listening, that's okay. Sometimes we need to multitask, but if you have the space and time, this episode, and in fact, this whole season is best if you can sit down and engage more directly. Get out a pen and paper, or open up a word doc and reflect, pause the podcast when you need, go back to something when you want to reflect more, but give yourself this gift.
Annalisa Holcombe: (01:42)
And I have to tell, you this season is actually really scary for me. While I've done this work for nearly two decades, I have never done this in such an open way. This work is deeply vulnerable, and I won't be able to tell if you're all engaged or not. So I'll be asking you to give us a call and leave us a voicemail message with your answers to the questions we explore. One thing I know for sure from this work, we all get more out of it when we learn from each other.
Annalisa Holcombe: (02:21)
So, let's dive in. We begin with an exploration of trust. Why? Because trust is central to the process of uncovering meaning and purpose in our lives. Over the years, I have always begun the conversation about trust by asking participants and here asking you, how do you define trust? What does it mean to you? I encourage you right now to pause this podcast and reflect, how do you define trust? Not a textbook answer, but something more free-flowing and honest for you? Take a minute. I'll wait.
Annalisa Holcombe: (03:17)
Now, what did you say? Over the years, I've heard many answers and particularly, when I speak to young adults, they often begin by talking about betrayal, and when their trust in someone or something was broken. Here are some answers from two people that called in this week.
Speaker 2: (03:38)
The concept of trust is very interesting for me to think about because it's actually played a central part in my life, and it's definitely been a theme that's been connected to a lot of the behavioral patterns that I've had throughout my life, whether it was as a kid and up until now as an adult. But I would say that trust is something that I didn't really feel was afforded to me too much as a child and for context, and to be fair, it was because I did lie to my parents and my family a lot. But the reason why I would lie so much is because, as a kid, I've just always had a very clear idea of what I wanted out of my life, and what I wanted my life to look like, and the way that I wanted to live my life.
Speaker 2: (04:30)
And while I'm really grateful to my family for just everything that they've given me and the love that they've given me, at the same time, there were definitely moments where I did not feel like they trusted me to make all of the decisions for myself. And so, there was a lot of clashing happening and there was a lot of butting heads, and there were a lot of times when I just felt restricted simply. Anyone who knows me knows that is my biggest pet peeve. I hate being restricted by anything. I can tolerate being restricted by myself because then I can change that, but when other people restrict me, that drives me up the wall.
Speaker 2: (05:13)
And so, what I did as a result was I would just do whatever the hell I wanted, and I would lie to my parents and that did not stop really until I entered college, and I had my own sense of independence. But because of that, I didn't really ever feel like people trusted me because my parents never trusted me when I grew up. And I realized that that affected the ways in which I interacted with other people because up until very recently, whenever I would be explaining something to people, I would always feel like I had to go the extra mile to explain myself, to make sure that I come across as someone who is credible or that they can trust me.
Speaker 2: (06:02)
And I realized that a lot of that just came from my experiences growing up. And I decided recently though, that I'm not going to do that anymore. And I've actually stopped explaining myself, and it's been very liberating because it's helped me remind myself that I don't have to explain myself to anyone. And also, for the majority of the time, people aren't expecting more of an explanation from me, I'm just projecting that onto the situation.
Speaker 3: (06:43)
I guess I define trust as being able to give control over to others, whether that be family, friends, or significant other, and I'll have that expectation that they'll do what's in my best interest, but also their own and everyone else around them. I think a key factor to my trust also stems from control because I am a grade A control freak. So, if there's someone that I trust enough to take over control of anything, whatever, not anything. But that's what it is. Trust, I guess, giving up control in a way. Yeah.
Annalisa Holcombe: (07:45)
How do these answers resonate for you? Did your definition of trust stem from childhood experience? How do experiences of not being trusted by people we love affect our own interactions with trust as we grow and mature? Did the link between trust and control spark something in you? Well, this all resonates with me. When I was a child, I was sexually assaulted by my well-respected elementary school teacher. My distrust of authority and systems runs deep from that experience. Understanding that has helped me identify when my trust radar is real, and when it's just that it has been triggered because of that experience. As a result, I also definitely have issues with control. I'm a leader at work, I'm in my 50s. And just recently, a few weeks ago, I had an epiphany about this. I became curious about my own inherent need to be liked and likable and realized that my need to be liked is actually a way I've been trying to control pain or difficult experiences in the workplace. In fact, in a previous podcast episode, our guest Gary Daynes specifically talked about contextual trust in the workplace. Have a listen.
Gary Daynes: (09:04)
I think trust means two contradictory things at the same time, or that is we use the word trust to actually refer to two things that are opposites of each other. So in an institutional setting, when a person says that they trust another person, it usually means that person will do what I want them to do or what I expect them to do, so they know the rules, so I can trust them. Right? So this is often what happens in a hierarchy where a boss says to somebody who works for them, "I trust you." Really what they're saying is I know that you're going to do, you'll stand in for me. You'll do what I was going to do. You'll follow the rules, you'll behave, so I can trust you. I don't need to pay attention because you're going to do what you're supposed to do.
Gary Daynes: (09:48)
So it's one usage of the word trust, and it's probably the more common usage of the word trust. But you can see what in there is really also distrust.
Annalisa Holcombe: (10:01)
Yeah.
Gary Daynes: (10:02)
In fact, we build systems around that kind of trust to make sure that the person stays in the lines. So in a work setting, if you're running a restaurant, you trust your night manager to obey the rules, but there's also this whole system of surveillance to make sure that they're obeying the rules. And then, you get evaluated on your ability to obey the rules and stuff. So, there's a form of trust that's really about, I think, predictability and control.
Annalisa Holcombe: (10:30)
Yeah.
Gary Daynes: (10:31)
And then there's another form of trust, which is I trust that things will work out the way that they're supposed to work out, or I trust you so completely as a person that I believe that the decisions that you'll make with integrity and with the best interests of our organization in mind.
Gary Daynes: (10:54)
And that's a trust that's based in letting go of control in just believing, imagining, hoping that there's some kind of a logic or a direction to the way the good relationships point, or that the universe points to use kind of faith language. That me means that in the big picture, things are going to work out okay if you let go, if you trust that person to do their thing to use their best gifts, to make decisions that you wouldn't necessarily make.
Annalisa Holcombe: (11:32)
Yeah.
Gary Daynes: (11:32)
That's different from that other kind of trust, right?
Annalisa Holcombe: (11:34)
Absolutely.
Gary Daynes: (11:35)
But we use the word trust to mean both of those things simultaneously or we can use it in a confusing sort of way.
Annalisa Holcombe: (11:41)
What do you think about this? Gary says there are two types of trust. One is about reliability and control. And the other is about letting go of control. The second is trusting that things will work out and trusting our friends and colleagues as people to make decisions with integrity. And I think this conversation begs the question, when did you extend trust? How does that differ depending on the context? Does it differ in your personal and professional relationships? How? Why? Here are two of our listeners.
Speaker 2: (12:17)
I would say that instinctually, I am a trusting person. I've always been like that. For the most part, I just give trust automatically to everyone who I meet and then, down the line, if their actions make me realize that they can't be trusted, that trust is taken away. However, in moments where I am insecure or feeling out of control or triggered in any way, I've noticed that if I'm specifically dealing with someone in a situation, oftentimes, my mind will go to a place where I think, "Oh my God, what if they go behind my back? Or what if they do something that will shatter my trust in them or do something that's untrustworthy?" And I think that's really interesting that that's where my mind goes to.
Speaker 2: (13:06)
But I would say that when I am at my most grounded and when I am solid and confident in myself, the trust flows out effortlessly. And I think that the effortlessness applies to everyone in my life. Obviously, trust can look a little differently with the different people that you have in your life based on situational and contextual factors, for example. But even then, I don't think it's really a matter of trust. It's just a matter of what's appropriate for the situation. Like I would never tell my coworkers my deepest darkest secrets, or I would never go into detail about family problems that I'm having, but it's not because I don't think I can trust them, it's because that's just not an appropriate conversation to have on slack while you're working.
Speaker 2: (14:08)
So I don't know if trust really differs with the people that you interact with. I just think that the type of trust that you're asking for is affected by the context and the situation.
Speaker 3: (14:26)
I think in regard to work, I'm trustworthy in the fact I want to move my own political agenda that fits my value system. So, I'm trustworthy to people that fit those values. But if I see my trustworthiness as getting in the way of moving my agenda, I'll lie to reinforce the agenda I think is necessary. In regard to personal life, I think I'm too absurdly honest, which maybe isn't trustworthy, but I feel like you can conflate the two if you want.
Annalisa Holcombe: (15:15)
In her book, Daring Greatly, and in many other instances, Dr. Brené Brown talks about the concept of the marble jar. I'm going to paraphrase here, but in essence, it means that each interaction that builds trust in our relationships and with each other is like putting a single marble in a jar. Eventually over time, our marble jar with that individual is full. And interestingly, the marbles are almost always the really very small things, the times that we have connected or shown interest or been kind in really simple ways. Filling that marble jar of trust is all about the little things and their consistency over time. On the other hand, if we betray someone, we spill that marble jar, and we all have to work really hard again over time, little by little, to fill it.
Annalisa Holcombe: (16:14)
So now, it's your time to go do your homework. And here's what I'd like you to do. First, go back and listen again. Throughout this episode, I have asked questions about trust. We've included those questions and even more, as a companion to this episode and a cell of reflection worksheet, you can find it in our connection collaborative blog at www.connectioncollaborative.com/blog.
Annalisa Holcombe: (16:44)
Second, listen to the 92,000 Hours episode on trust with Gary Daynes, you can find it within season one. And third, you can go in and complete the trust quotient assessment developed by the company trusted advisor. It will give you, for free, your own trust quotient. You can find it at trustsuite.trustedadvisor.com.
Annalisa Holcombe: (17:14)
And finally, we need your responses. What are your answers to those questions? Any of the questions I asked in this podcast or any that are included in our companion worksheet, you can call and leave your answers on our voicemail by calling 385-501-7333. You may hear your voice on our next episode. And speaking of the next episode, we're going to continue this work.
Annalisa Holcombe: (17:43)
Next time, we're focusing on courage and vulnerability. And if you're willing, I'd love to feature a few of your voices on our next episode. What are your answers to the following questions? First, when you think of vulnerability, what comes to your mind? Do you think of courage or weakness, and why? Second, has vulnerability ever led to greater engagement or deeper connection for you? If so, in what way? And finally, do you think that there is room for courage and vulnerability in our national discourse? If you saw a leader exhibit those traits, how would you react?
Annalisa Holcombe: (18:30)
We are looking forward to hearing from you. Give us a call and leave a voicemail. Again, our number is 385-501-7333. And we will have that listed in the show notes. Or you can email me directly with your answers at Annalisa@connectioncollaborative.com. We're so excited to engage in this work with you and to learn about ourselves, our relationships, our workplaces, and our communities together.
Annalisa Holcombe: (19:46)
As always, thank you for listening to 92,000 Hours. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave a review. We really appreciate the support. If you're interested in learning more about our work, please visit our website at connectioncollaborative.com or follow us on social media. We're everywhere now, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, and even TikTok. We'd like to thank everyone who's called in and left us a voicemail. And if you haven't called, we'd love to hear from you. Our number again is 385-501-7333. Thank you and see you next week on 92,000 Hours.
Annalisa Holcombe: (20:43)
This episode was produced and edited by Breanna Steggell. Lexie Banks assists us with show notes and transcripts. And I'm your host, Annalisa Holcombe.