Ep 45: Subtle Radicalism with Felecia Maxfield-Barrett
92,000 Hours
Subtle actions and small acts of kindness can change the world.
This week, Annalisa sits down with Felecia Maxfield-Barrett, President and CEO of Utah Global Diplomacy. This heartfelt, honest, conversation digs into the ways that we can all inject subtle radicalism in our day-to-day lives.
Transcript
Annalisa Holcombe:
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to 92 ,000 hours, the podcast where we explore what it means to spend our long 92 ,000 hours of our lives at work, but to spend them with meaning and purpose.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Today, on our podcast, I am so excited because we are welcoming Felecia Maxfield-Barratt. Felecia is the president and CEO of Utah global diplomacy. And I should tell you that I serve on the board of this organization so I know a little bit of something about it and I have utmost respect for Felecia. Utah Global Diplomacy focuses on citizen diplomacy within the state of Utah, hence the name.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Citizen diplomacy is the concept that every individual has the right and actually even the responsibility to help shape U.S. foreign relations by connecting with each other one handshake at a time. And their underlying mission is to promote respect and understanding among people. Felecia herself has more than 20 years of experience in government and nonprofit management, and she is fiercely dedicated to helping nonprofits make good business decisions using data-driven evidence.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Her prior work history involves places like refugee services, the Office of the Department of Workforce Services, the Utah Refugee Coalition, and Wasatch Community Gardens. She serves on a bunch of international committees and clearly knows something about international relations.
Annalisa Holcombe:
She has a bachelor's degree in anthropology and a master's degree in public administration, and she has recently graduated from the Goldman Sachs 10,000 small business program. I am so excited about our conversation today because she has chosen that we will be talking about subtle radicalism.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Woo Woohoo. All right. So let's get going on this. I'm so excited, Felecia, to have you join me on the podcast today.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Oh, thanks, Annalisa. I'm excited to be here.
Annalisa Holcombe:
I've known you for so long. And we've had great opportunities to have interesting conversations about a lot of things. But what we're talking about today gives me so much curiosity about how this will come out today. So I can't wait to see. So, right? But my first question, as everyone knows, it listens to the podcast, is always what I call the big question.
Annalisa Holcombe:
So, Felecia, for you, if you take away any reference to work, to, you know, work awards or the things that we always talk about in terms of, what do you do? To take that away and I were to ask you, what is it about you that you're most proud of as a human being? What would that be?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And this is different than what is my word that I would use to describe me. Is right okay um I am I allowed to swear on your podcast…
Annalisa Holcombe:
Yes people have done it before it is it's okay.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
That's the politeness coming out of me right as a as a Utah girl, it it is that I'm able to figure shit out and I have my entire life I've been able to just figure out and put together resources. And sometimes I ask really dumb questions. And sometimes I ask really smart questions. And what I find is that it gets me to connect with the people who have the answers.And when I can connect with people who have the answers, I can figure it out. So that's what I would say defines me as a person.
Annalisa Holcombe:
How do you apply that not just to your work life, but to your life in general?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Okay, so I'll tell you a story that happened recently. So in September of last year, my dad passed away. And my, married for 43 years. And I have a brother, but my brother's no longer in the picture. And my mom, she, she married very young. And she went from her family's house into my father's house. And he pretty much took care of her his entire life. Right. And when he way he you know he he had really great qualities about him but he also left a big pile of crap for us to clean up you know was that surprising to you.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
I thought in full transparency that if I had to clean up after one of my parents, it would have to be my mom and not my dad. Because he always talked about having really strong work ethics and values and, you know, being prepared for emergencies. And I quickly figured out that he had a skeleton, a closet full of skeletons. And part of the closet full of is that he had not financially prepared for his passing.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Now, he was young. He was only 64. And I don't think he anticipated it. Nobody anticipated it was really out of the blue. But what happened was in dealing with all of that mess and trying to unravel that gigantic, tangled ball of yarn, you know, we pretty much had to become investigators. And I say we, because, you know, it was me holding my mom's hand through the entire process and saying, okay, where do we go to find this document?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And if we can't find this document, then we're going to have to figure out how to get that document. How do we find out if he had any money with his job? Well, you've got to do this. You've got to call the employer and they'll give you other numbers that you have to call. And you have to call and you have to ask him this question.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
You know, vehicles where we had lost the title. And so trying to figure out, you know, once you start getting the government involved, it's just this bureaucratic nightmare, like what are the steps you have to take and really dissecting it down into, okay, step one, you do this. Step two, you do this. Step three.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Then also looking at who is the community around me that has gone through this before, maybe not the exact same situation, but I might be able to just say, hey, you know, who do I contact for this, you know, this situation? You know, an example is I had met this really incredible business owner who specialized in social security benefits. And social security for me is like, oh, I don't even know how to start navigating that. But when my dad passed away, I picked up the phone and I called him and I said, you know about social security benefits. Do you know how I can get my mom signed up on survivor benefits? And he told me and it was really helpful and was able to give us some insight numbers.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So it's like little things like that that because in starting out my young adult life, you know, having to figure it out along the way, I feel like it really prepared me for this gigantic figure it out so that I could then empower my mom to get to a position where she was financially Um, you know, so going back again to where my dad had been taking care of her. She, she had made no financial decisions in their relationship. She didn't know how to create a budget. She didn't know what money was coming in, what money was going out.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And so, I remember sitting her down at the very beginning and saying, you know, look, mom, we're not only going to make you financially free, but we're going to have your money work for you so that you are in control of your finances. And I remember she just broke down crying because she said, nobody has ever told me that I have that ability and freedom to be financially stowned.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
She was like, I just always relied on your dad. And so it was just like, you know, my whole life has been giving to, you know, working for nonprofits and helping humanity and, you know, trying to make the world a better place. And it sort of just all came together that it was all in preparation to just make sure that the most vulnerable person and my mom could survive.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Like, yeah. It's amazing. I am with you. I just need to tell you that I share that when my dad passed away at 64, interesting. My mom, it had been probably two decades since she had put gas in her own car. Oh, that's unbelievable. And she called me crying saying, I don't even know how to do this. It looks way different than it used to. Your dad just filled up my gas tank every week. And so, like, helping her relearn. I feel that.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
But I also am really interested because one of the things that you said was about freedom and your mom having freedom. And I think I think that word probably means I'm really interested in how that word might align with the subject matter we're talking about today and the work that you do because that word of freedom can be so deep in ways that we don't necessarily understand.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And particularly, I have to say, this is from my own perspective, but particularly for women. Like, what does it mean to have freedom? And for all sorts of marginalized communities.
Annalisa Holcombe:
So, all right, so let's talk about, When I asked you, okay, I said, you know, we're going to talk about change makers and people who are making change in our society. And I always use a word to help us have kind of a theme around what we're talking about. And I even suggested a whole bunch of words to you and said, like, you know, you can talk about this or this or this. And you said, I know what I want to talk about. So explain to the listeners what that were, like what you want to talk about and why you chose that because I, I love it and I can't wait.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yeah. Can we go back to that word freedom though really quickly? Yes, absolutely. I just want to share some personal insight about that. So I'm a first generation college student. You know, as I mentioned, my parents got young very early. They got married when they were 16 years old. You know, I have an older brother, so I'll let you put the pieces together.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
You know, and just as any parents, they wanted me to do better than them. And what that meant is they wanted me to not get pregnant in high school and they wanted me to graduate. There was no conversation of you go to college. And so I, you know, I didn't get pregnant. And I graduated from high school and I go, well, now what I'm going to do? And all of my friends were getting ready to go to college.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And so I'm like, well, everybody says you go to college after high school. So that is exactly what I did. And I packed up my little red Ford Festiba Roller Skate with all of my belongings. And I drove down to Cedar City, Utah. And I went into an advisor's office. And I think this is like a day, maybe two days before school starts. And I said, okay, I came to college. Now what do I do?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
She just looked at me like it was crazy. And she said, what do you mean? And I said, well, I don't know how I'm going to pay for college. And I haven't registered for any classes. And she said, well, you know, let's sit you down and let's get you set up. And I remember she sat me down. And I think she ended up spending easily four hours with me. And we filled out student loan papers, which I had never heard about before. And she found me a job working for a call centers, like one of two jobs that you can get in Cedar City back in the day. And we registered for classes. And I remember it was like the bottom of the barrel classes.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So it was like 18th century Chinese history. And it was a level 400 or 4,000 creative writing class. And let me tell you, the first day I'm in class, the professor pulls me to the side and he's like, what are you doing here? You don't belong in my class. And I said, I've got to have your class because the advisor told me that I had to keep at least 12 credit hours in order to keep my student loans. And I have to have your class. There's no other class for me to go to. Is there anything you can do?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And by the grace of God, he put me on a pass fail and I passed and I honestly think I just barely passed. And he came up to me again and he's like, you need to educate yourself. And you know, you're lucky you pass this class. Don't do that again. Get ahead of the curve, but he's like, I want to see you back in my class when you're ready to take it. And I was like, great, I will do that. And I still have the book that he gifted me.
Annalisa Holcombe:
How nice. Good people to show up for you, though.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Right. In the most simple way. And is this weird thing between like nice, being nice and being kind are not the same thing, right? People can be really nice and not kind, but people can be kind and not necessarily nice. And so, yeah, it's really interesting.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So fast forward many, many years later, I graduate from college. I get a degree in anthropology. I decide that I'm going to work with refugees. And I was at Department of Workforce Services at the time. And so I transferred over to work.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
They were putting together the specialized refugee team because so many refugees were falling through the cracks. And so I was overseeing food stamps, Medicaid, childcare, welfare services. And I just remember thinking that the woman who took time out of her day to sit me down and just give me the resources, just walk me through and tell me, how do I go to college as opposed to you should go to college?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Here I was many years later, because it took me like eight years to finally graduate from college, that I was in the same position where people were sitting in front of me asking me, how do I survive in America because they were coming as refugees with the bags that they could pack on an airplane in tow and that was it and it was well let's teach you that you don't just have to survive that you can actually thrive in America.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And the simplest way is just what are the resources and what are the opportunities and when you said freedom it just made me realize that that's all that having access to opportunities it are having the choices of whether or not you want to accept an opportunity or decline it that's exactly that's what freedom is. And there's so many people that don't even have access to opportunity or know how to find those opportunities and therefore they will never be free and I feel like to wrap this whole story back in like that was the situation with my mom she was never given the opportunity to make choices so she never had freedom. That's a the sad reality of the world we live in right now.
Annalisa Holcombe:
I am so thrilled that you talked about it makes me almost a little bit weepy because it resonates with me so much and I think it will with so many people my my mother I'm also a first generation college student and my mother told me that she didn't care about whether it meant I had a degree or it meant I had a cool job she talked to me about how it meant I had freedom. And it was, she literally used that word she says a bachelor's degree equals freedom and freedom in the way that she didn't have like freedom to attend a parent teacher conference in the middle of the day or freedom to say no to something that you don't want to do or freedom to leave a job knowing you could find another one or freedom to leave a marriage if you need to. She was like, I don't I hope you never need to do any of those things but I want you to be equipped and that piece of paper will help you.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yeah. Yep, exactly.
Annalisa Holcombe:
So let's, and I, I want to get to this because one of the questions, it was really also fascinating to me. And I want to honor this in you is that you talked about something that could be so difficult. I mean, like that memory of showing up in college could be so traumatic for you. And yet you have, you told this story that turned it around into a superpower in your professional life, which is incredible. Like this moment of not knowing and having such a traumatic experience that taught you something important that led you to want to work with people who you knew would have that traumatic experience as well, who you then are serving in a way that you took that and turned it into something incredibly positive. And I think that is an important lesson that I will take away and hold with me because it's lovely.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Thank you. Thank you. So I think, I mean, that leads me to what my phrases and what I wanted to talk about. And, you know, it's, I'm in my 40s. It's been a lifetime journey for me to figure out how all of these bits and pieces and, like, lessons sort of come together and what is, what is my story that I have to…
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And one of the things that I figured out really recently is that one of my absolute core values is that everybody on this planet is worth something. They are worth respect and worth dignity. And when we don't treat each other with that worth. I think it just really hurts us all as a human race, right? And we see it so much these days. We are completely divided. And what divides us are these big topics that we absolutely refuse to come to the table and sit down with each other and talk to one another.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And, you know, while I have my, my own labels for myself, you know, first generation, college student, a woman, at the same time, I also recognized that I was born and raised in American Fork, Utah, and had access to every opportunity you could possibly find, right? A very privileged background. And so as I have lived my life and gathered other people's stories and listen to what they have experienced in trying to to define what my role in life is, you know, it's not to be the person on the stage talking about their woes and their injustices and all of the isms that come with that, right?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Rather what it is, is it's me, and here's my phrase, is just doing subtle, radical movements to be able to push those who are not receiving the worthiness and the dignity and respect that they deserve forward just a little bit so that the unfairness that the world is offering to them can be just a little bit more fair by creating the stage or platform or opportunity to get their voices out there and heard.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So, yeah, so subtle radical. And I'm really into epistemology lately. The root of words, I think it's just so fascinating. And the root of radical is root, right? Meaning that it comes from the base. And it's just this idea or thought or action that grows and just subtly has just this little bit of a turn and springs off into something entirely different. And so it doesn't take, And this is for everybody. It doesn't take a whole lot of effort.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
It doesn't take radical change, although there is definitely a space for that, for the right people. But for everyday people, it's just these subtle little movements, these subtle changes, these acts of kindness, you know, sitting down with somebody who goes to college for the first time, or sitting down with somebody who walked off a plane because they're running from war and genocide and displacement to just say, you know what, I'm going to spend five minutes. I'm going to talk to you.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Like that is such a subtle, radical movement these days that can make an entire life change, the entire trajectory of people change just by little movements. I love that. I looked up radical as well. And it's so interesting because the word can mean so many things. But of course, starting from the root, but people can be radical by being just different from the usual or traditional. Or you can be radical by being just like the traditional but extreme, right?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Like it could be, and it's scientific and it's mathematical because there are like, you know, you think of all of these words that have radical in them. Or I think of I'm a kid of the 90s and rad, radical is cool. Right. So I like to think of your subtle radicalism as also cool.
Annalisa Holcombe:
And I think that aligns with your, like I also think that you're cool and there's some like stories that you probably have for me about your cool background. Which leads me to that like did you always know that you were subtly radical like kid growing up in American Fork, Utah?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yes sometimes um it was society telling me that I was radical so so born I'm raised in American Fork. I am not part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but rather I grew up Pentecostal. For those, yeah, for those who don't know what Pentecostal is, it is the speaking in tongues and rolling on the floor, and there's even sects of the faith that handles snakes, right? Like, it is, it's a radical religion, for sure.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Wow. I didn't even know it was there in Utah. I didn't even know.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
It was this little, little like beautiful church. I remember they had the most beautiful bell that would ring on Sunday mornings called Rock Canyon Assembly of God. I don't even think it exists anymore. But yeah. So, so I had society tell me that I was radical just because of what I was and what I believed in, you know, and I never wanted, I just didn't want to be normal. And so, you know, in high school, I'm pretty sure some people would have called me goth or, you know, alternative, whatever you want to call it.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So I remember, yeah, I remember going to dance clubs at 16. There was one in Salt Lake called confetti and I would go go to that club where they let kids smoke and even though I never smoked. Yeah. So I always had a sense that I didn't want to be the same. You know, and then from there, when I realized that I didn't want to be goth forever, then it was a change over to being ska, being part of the punk seeing, you know, a rude girl, riding scooters around. And it was all about the music, you know. It was all about the message in the music of, you know, and talk about subtle radicalism.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Like music is such an incredible tool to bring people together, but to make people think that maybe systems need to change. And yeah, and so music, I remember going to this concert and it was in the industrial part of Salt Lake. And, you know, the crowds were definitely fighting with one another and my boyfriend, who's now my husband at the time was like, oh, we got to get out of here. This is not going to end up good. And as we're walking outside, the riot police show up. And we're like, oh, my gosh, okay, we're out of here for sure.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yeah, but it was, it was something to give a young person without any direction at the time a little bit of meaning and something to critically think about and listening to the lyrics and the music and why are people saying what it is that they're saying through these songs.
Annalisa Holcombe:
That's so interesting. When you think um subtle radicalism how does that express itself um I understand how I'd express itself as you were growing up but how do you then apply it in a professional sense?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
I'll definitely talk about the work that I do at utah global diplomacy Um, so, so Utah global diplomacy being a nonprofit, uh, for 60 years, it's, it's soft power diplomacy. It is diplomacy that is for the people as opposed to diplomacy that is for the governments.
Annalisa Holcombe:
What does that mean? Can I, I apologize for interrupting, but like, what's the difference between diplomacy for the people and diplomacy for the governments. What does that mean?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yeah. So, I mean, I think we see this all the time in things, in conflicts that are going on around the world. And I'll take Russia and Ukraine, for example. When the Russian Ukrainian war started, so many people were saying, oh, it's the Russian government that is invading Ukraine. It's not the Russian people. Like the Russian people aren't supporting this. It's the governments that are. And so when you think about traditional diplomacy, it is, it is the negotiation between government entities. So it's so much larger than what you or I can do, right?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
I mean, there are think tanks. There are embassies. There are ambassadors. There are policy experts. There is a whole line of people that are influencing based off of these logic models and these policy models of the past on how governments will interact with one another. And what are the consequences like sanctions, you know, God forbid war as part of that is so much bigger. But when we talk about soft power diplomacy, it doesn't require government intervention.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
It could be, and I mean, social media is such a good example of soft power diplomacy. You can get on to any kind of social media platform and talk to anybody from around the world, right? So it's me and you just meeting each other and shaking hands and sitting down together and saying, what do you do and what do I do? And how are we trying to make the world better together? It's just that simple, right?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So examples of soft power diplomacy could be sports, culture, and arts and entertainment. It can be music. It can be books are a really great example of soft power, business to business interaction, all of it that sort of takes the governments out of the equation and just says, we're going to have people meet each other from around the world. And so that's what we do.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
We're Utah's leading nonprofit when it comes to soft power diplomacy. So what we do is we invite people from around the world. It's about 400 people a year, 125 different countries to come here and they have a very specific reason that they're coming here. It could be that they're looking at business relations or government accountability. It could be like we're talking about a program that's archaeology and paleontology right now, which I'm so excited if we get that program. It could be the digital economy, rule of law, interfaith dialogue.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And what we do as an organization is we look at who are the case studies and the people here in Utah that are doing really interesting things to address that same issue here. And we facilitate meetings between these international guests and the people in Utah. And that's the whole idea. It's just to get them to meet each other and shake hands and sit down together and say, what are you doing and what am I doing?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And so, there's something so beautiful about that, that human beings from different countries who speak different languages, who have different backgrounds, ultimately are working on solving similar problems and are also, you know, like we're, there's like this difference and then there's so much similarity that we have across cultures.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And so I'll share a story with you really quickly. So we're part of this larger network of nonprofits. There's about 86 of us across the United States. So almost every major city has some kind of organization like ours. And I was at a conference, and this is when I first started. So I hadn't quite grasped the power of citizen diplomacy just yet. But this woman from Kazakhstan was receiving an award. And during her award speech, she had mentioned that she had gone to the Boys and Girls Club of Greater Salt Lake in Salt Lake City, Utah, and just learned about their model.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
It was an hour and a half meeting. Part of it was like a service project and the service project was them playing with the kids, you know, and seeing what their recreation was all about. And she was so inspired by their model and got all of their resources while she was visiting with them. She went back to her country and she opened up a boys and girls club there. And then she opened up two more. And by the time she had received this award, she had opened up 10 of these clubs in her community and surrounding villages and towns, right?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And I went up to her afterwards and I was like, and I'm a data nerd. I think we all need to be collecting better data, right? So I went up to her afterwards and I was like, this is blowing my mind. I cannot believe that this is so incredible. The work that you're doing based off of an hour and a half meeting. I'm like, how many kids have you served? And she's like, oh, Felecia, I can easily tell you how many kids I've served. But let me tell you the bigger impact of these centers that I opened. It is that when the kids are in these centers, their parents are coming in and taking these extra classes.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And so the kids being in the center are not only influencing themselves, but they're influencing their family structures. And when you influence the family structures, you influence the entire community as a whole. And she's like, that is unmeasurable. Our impact of what we've been able to do with these 10 centers cannot be measured at this point because it has made our entire community more peaceful. The kids are getting in less trouble. It's things that we cannot measure because it's prevention at that point. And it was something as simple as an hour and a half meeting being able to change an entire community.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
That just opened my eyes to how impactful the concept of citizen diplomacy is. And the concept of citizen diplomacy is simply, you know, everybody having the right, even the responsibility to shape foreign relations and it's done one handshake at a time. I love it's the people being with other people as humans and actually seeing each other.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
One more story really quickly. And this one, like, it was heart wrenching. And it was we had a group from Ukraine that was here in Utah right before the war started. Like we put them on the plane the day before the airports were going to shut down, knowing what they were going back to.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And I just remember, you know, I had the honor of taking one of the visitors to a grocery store because she really wanted American cream cheese, right? she had heard about it. She wanted to try it. I'm like, great. Let's go get you some cream cheese because why not? And as we're walking around the grocery store, you know, she gets her cream cheese. We go over to the gourmet cheese section and she finds this Ukrainian cheese in the gourmet section. She's like, this is our equivalent of cream cheese. She's like, what is it doing in your nice gourmet cream cheese section?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And it was just those little pinpoints of similarity of we have so much in common with each other from around the world if we would just be quiet for a minute and listen to each other.
Annalisa Holcombe:
I feel like the theme of listening has been pervasive this season of my recording of these podcasts because almost every lesson has had something to do with how important it is to listen to other people and work your work as a as a citizen diplomat is so important to that can you describe to me how you see like real like what is the relationship between subtle radicalism and citizen diplomacy how do you How do you, how do you link those two in terms of kind of your life path?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
I think it's the handshake that we meet each other. You know, I, in my job of working with refugees and now at Utah Global Diplomacy, you know, every once in a while I pull out a map and I count how many countries I engaged with just through my jobs. And I have not done extensive international travel by any means. And the last time I counted, it's 173 different countries.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
That means that that's amazing, right? It's insane. And somebody asked me, well, what countries haven't you met? And I'm like, that's a good question. I don't really know. And so this time when I was County. I paid attention to the countries that I passed over. And a lot of them are these like really tiny islands that you have to have a very specific reason to go.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
But I think, I mean, the fact that I could meet people from 173 different countries means that when I am listening to the news or reading the newspaper And I see something that is happening in that country. It brings me back to those people that I have met. And all of a sudden, it makes the world incredibly small. And I care about it so much more because those are my friends. Those are the people that I have shared meals with that we have laughed at meetings, that I have gone to their house and met their children. Like it really does bring the world so close.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And I think that if we were able to connect with each other where we stop being so divided between each other and saying, well, you believe in that or you're from that place, or you are this person or you're that is. And instead just recognize each other as friends because we shared something as simple as we just sat down together and met each other and talked to one another.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Like how much more wonderful would the world be if we just thought of each other as friends? And I get like I am I am not naive. I get that this is a very Pollyanna approach to world peace, but it works. It's why those things that you talked about at the beginning, the music and the books and those things that like bring us into someone's life are able to humanize us all and remind ourselves that people, you know, ultimately we're so similar whether like we're still all looking for a way to feed our families and we're still all we still all experience our parents passing away somehow or yeah sometimes we do right like but there's like human experiences that we all can share with each other yeah exactly I'm interested in this idea of both of like the way that you bring diplomacy, which is in fact subtly radical, this I'm going to listen to people and I'm going to reach across a table and shake your hand and share a meal.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Can you describe to me how that diplomacy, subtle radicalism, how does that show up for you in your marriage or your relationship with your child?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
That's, yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, my husband and I, we met so young, right? We, of course, when you're young, you've got those similarities of what kind of music do you like? I like that kind of music, right? And so, so I feel like that has always been part of my marriage foundation is like how can we rock the boat just a little right and I would say I kind of like that though that's kind of fun right and so together as a powerhouse and all of our families are still here in Utah. We just find little ways to jab at thoughts that you know and thoughts these days that seem to be more prevalent than others of why do you think that way and have you thought about this and um you know what what it what would it look like if maybe we started thinking about it in this way and and so it you know…
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
I feel like we're a power couple when it comes to how can we just sort of put that little irritation when family parties are getting together and, you know, being not of the same opinion as a lot of our families, you know, so I think that that's one way that we can do subtle radicalism.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
The, for my daughter, I, we have really interesting conversations after school specifically of like if she's taught something why is why is that taught as truth. And I'll give you just a really clear example so when she was little of course they would celebrate Columbus Day and and talking about all of the amazing things that Christopher Columbus did. Well you know being an adult we now recognize that he was not a good person by any means. And so not when she was so little that she couldn't comprehend the, the horribleness that the world has to offer.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
But when she was in fourth and fifth and sixth grade, it was, well, let's start talking about this. And did you know that Christopher Columbus actually did this? And did you know that because of what he did, has had this ripple effect on this, right? And so just linking these things and trying to get her to critically think through what is she being told and is it accurate? Is there another side to the story?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And in my opinion, I think that those are the conversations we need to be having with young people. We need to be having these critical conversations with young people to think differently because they are the change of the future. They're the change of now. And they're going to do by far better than our generation did and the generation before us. And so how do we empower them with the tool of thinking about others and being empathetic to others so that they can make the world a better place as well.
Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that. I love that so much. And I feel like our young people often teach us that as if it's like in, you know, that whole it's, it's inherent in us to have empathy. Maybe not when we're really small. But like as we get older and we're, you know, a young child, it is my daughter. Even now, if she has a treat, she automatically offers me half of it. Like she will automatically like, would you like to share?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Like there's this idea of, you know, community that is almost inherent. Yeah, yeah, get that out of us as we get older. Yeah, young kids just have this beauty about them that there is unfairness in the world and it is something that needs to be addressed like unfairness is not tolerated and we need to rectify it immediately. They get it, how come we as adults can't get it any longer that there's unfairness and how do we come together to fix the unfairness in the world?
Annalisa Holcombe:
I was thinking about this idea of when you said that you were interested in talking about subtle radicalism and I was trying to think of like what how do I see subtle radicalism happening. And it reminded me of this.
Annalisa Holcombe:
I’ve seen this whole, and maybe this shows my algorithms that I get, but I've seen like this whole social media thing that has to do with how are people micro-feminists, right? Like what are the little micro-feminism things to do? And examples would be if you're in a meeting and someone says, like you always say, like one person said, I'm a leader of an organization and when somebody needs to take notes, I always look at the man in the meeting first instead of the one because we've always been looking at women to take the notes or whatever. Or when I send an email, I, and it's to several people, I'll put the women's names first instead of the man's name. Yes. And it's like a little subtle, very micro feminist thing to do.
Annalisa Holcombe:
And I thought it might align with the idea of subtle radicalism, just like changing small little ways of asking a question or addressing an issue that is not traditional.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Oh, yeah. I'm going to get on a soapbox to defend what you just said. And that is getting names right to me is one of the most subtle radicalist things that you can do. I don't even know if that is a word, right? But, but, but so my name, Felecia, is spelled with two E's instead of the traditional way of two eyes. And I cannot tell you how many people in powerful positions misspell my name, even after I've corrected them numerous, numerous times and said, oh, my name's actually spelled with two E's instead of two eyes. They continue to do that. Like, just that sheer respect of, I'm going to spell your name correctly and pronounce your name correctly is one of the kindest things that you can do to show respect to someone else.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Like subtle radicalism, take a second to understand somebody's name. I think that is so powerful because how often do we do that in situations? How often do I hear people do that, especially with names that don't sound so Americanized? And what we what we hear people saying are things like, oh, I don't, I'm going to try to say it, but I'm going to butcher it. So sorry, instead of actually just asking them in advance. We're saying, can you help me learn how to pronounce your name?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So this is an open invitation. If I spell your name incorrectly or say your name incorrectly, like please correct me because it truly is we are equal and you are, again, worthy of my respect that I'm going to get your name right. That's awesome. When we're talking about people in positions of power.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Is there a way to exercise subtle radicalism as an employer? Because I think like your boss is come into play as a in any type of a leadership role or as a leader of an organization. Have you thought about that at all?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yeah. Excellent question. Because I am definitely I wouldn't say a micromanager, but, you know, I like to be in the know of what is going on. And I think there's a couple of things that, you know, we as bosses can do in the workplace. One is trust our employees. I mean, if we hired them, we should be able to trust that they're able to get the job done. You know, maybe they need some guidance and that's perfectly fine. But they're going to deliver the products that you need them to deliver.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So trust in employees, I think is incredible. I would say, you know, taking a look at the bigger picture of who the people are that are working for you and giving them space to be humans. So we always put, you know, human circumstances before employment circumstances, you know, if you're a working mom or a working dad and you need to stay home a little bit extra in the summertime because summers are really difficult for working parents, then you know what? It's going to be perfectly fine if you work remotely. That's okay. Your child is sick and you need to drop meetings for the date. That is perfectly fine. Don't come to work sick and don't worry about sending your child to daycare sick, right?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So allowing there to be space for human situations to occur and not having a count against them as being humans. I feel like how crazy radical is that, right? But then also looking at career development and really working alongside them to say, how do we scale up what it is that you ultimately want to do in your career? So like, I've got an employee right now that really wants to work on her leadership skills and public speaking skills. And so I'm trying to find different boards for her to sit on, conferences for her to present, you You know, what kind of speech classes can she go to to be able to improve her public speaking?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And so really looking at jobs and especially for, you know, it's just a different time. People don't stay in their jobs forever any longer, which is perfectly fine. What is the next stepping stone and how can I help you get there successfully? I love that. It's something that we often don't think of. And those are subtly, radically radical things to do as well.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Yeah. I love that we are talking through and then end up talking about our role as bosses or leaders because I would imagine you are probably serving already as a mentor to individuals on your team. And I would love to give you an opportunity to speak about mentors in your life. It's a theme that I have that none of us get here without people showing up for us who may not have even realized that they showed up for us. Yeah. Help us. So is there anybody that you would like to honor by talking about their mentorship to you?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. There's so many. There's so many. You know, and again, I think this goes back to the very beginning of our conversation when it was like I just I had to figure shit out in order to get things done. And it would not have been possible without the people in my lives who continually show up for me and say, well, have you thought about this? And, you know, you did this. Maybe think about it in a different way.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
The person that comes to mind immediately is Beth Marshall, who was the previous executive director to me in this role as being the executive director of Utah Global Diplomacy. I met her when she was working for the English Skills Learning Center. We were both working with refugees. And I had ran into some professional problems that just really were traumatic to tell you the truth.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
It was it was not a good time for me. I had made some decisions and then I was also bold enough to make some decisions and people said that I was arrogant and it ruined my reputation. And I just remember we would go to these coffee meetings and just talk to one another and say, what are you working on? And it's almost like we take turns. like, you know, she'll spend one coffee meeting listening to me, talk about everything that I'm working through, and then vice versa, I'll listen to her. And then she had a position open at Utah Global Diplomacy and said, I want you to come and work for me because I know you, I trust you. And so I started doing our events. And then a few months later, she had to move to Germany with her husband and she said, actually, I brought you in because I would love for you to be applied to try to be the executive director of this organization.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And so the continual, like, can I just ping ideas off of you? Can I get your input on this? Or I'm just having a crappy day and I need to just tell somebody how pissed off I am today. I mean, she really has been that professional friend that I've been able to rely on at least for the last 15 years. And sometimes your mentors are your friends.
Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that. I love that the mentor is not like, this is also subtly radical, Felecia, that it's somebody who is not like up above you that you've been looking up to forever. It's somebody who is your peer and has been and has been your peer and has seen you.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yeah, especially when they saw you during the hard times.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Yeah, exactly. I love that story. That's amazing. Yeah. Thank you. So thank you so much for spending time talking to me today. I think what you're going to bring to the conversation for our listeners is going to be really important and really helpful because we all need to practice a little more subtle radicalism in our lives.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Oh, 100%. And if anyone gets lost on, how do you do that in your lives? I'm happy to sit down and just brainstorm ideas.
Annalisa Holcombe:
I love it. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. I appreciate it. This is going to be great fun to get out there into the world.
Annalisa Holcombe:
As you may be able to tell, Felecia has extensive experience in understanding and collecting oral histories and storytelling. And she says that she believes that through capturing stories, we can create a sense of self, explore the world, organize and pass on our knowledge to others, and create a sense of shared humanity.
Annalisa Holcombe:
She's certainly done that with us today. Thank you so much, Felecia, for your stories, for your insight, and of course, for your subtle radicalism. As she says, if you'd like to see her nerd out, you can connect with her and ask her about nonprofit management or data collection or music and gardening and outdoor adventuring. She is an amazing bicycle racer.
Annalisa Holcombe:
You can connect with her at LinkedIn, and you can learn more about citizen diplomacy at www.utah globaldiplomacy.org.
Annalisa Holcombe:
And I hope you join us next time, where we will be speaking with Kyle Vandermullen from American Philanthropic, and the focus will be on integrity.<
Annalisa Holcombe:
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to 92 ,000 hours, the podcast where we explore what it means to spend our long 92 ,000 hours of our lives at work, but to spend them with meaning and purpose.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Today, on our podcast, I am so excited because we are welcoming Felecia Maxfield-Barratt. Felecia is the president and CEO of Utah global diplomacy. And I should tell you that I serve on the board of this organization so I know a little bit of something about it and I have utmost respect for Felecia. Utah Global Diplomacy focuses on citizen diplomacy within the state of Utah, hence the name.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Citizen diplomacy is the concept that every individual has the right and actually even the responsibility to help shape U.S. foreign relations by connecting with each other one handshake at a time. And their underlying mission is to promote respect and understanding among people. Felecia herself has more than 20 years of experience in government and nonprofit management, and she is fiercely dedicated to helping nonprofits make good business decisions using data-driven evidence.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Her prior work history involves places like refugee services, the Office of the Department of Workforce Services, the Utah Refugee Coalition, and Wasatch Community Gardens. She serves on a bunch of international committees and clearly knows something about international relations.
Annalisa Holcombe:
She has a bachelor's degree in anthropology and a master's degree in public administration, and she has recently graduated from the Goldman Sachs 10,000 small business program. I am so excited about our conversation today because she has chosen that we will be talking about subtle radicalism.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Woo Woohoo. All right. So let's get going on this. I'm so excited, Felecia, to have you join me on the podcast today.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Oh, thanks, Annalisa. I'm excited to be here.
Annalisa Holcombe:
I've known you for so long. And we've had great opportunities to have interesting conversations about a lot of things. But what we're talking about today gives me so much curiosity about how this will come out today. So I can't wait to see. So, right? But my first question, as everyone knows, it listens to the podcast, is always what I call the big question.
Annalisa Holcombe:
So, Felecia, for you, if you take away any reference to work, to, you know, work awards or the things that we always talk about in terms of, what do you do? To take that away and I were to ask you, what is it about you that you're most proud of as a human being? What would that be?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And this is different than what is my word that I would use to describe me. Is right okay um I am I allowed to swear on your podcast…
Annalisa Holcombe:
Yes people have done it before it is it's okay.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
That's the politeness coming out of me right as a as a Utah girl, it it is that I'm able to figure shit out and I have my entire life I've been able to just figure out and put together resources. And sometimes I ask really dumb questions. And sometimes I ask really smart questions. And what I find is that it gets me to connect with the people who have the answers.And when I can connect with people who have the answers, I can figure it out. So that's what I would say defines me as a person.
Annalisa Holcombe:
How do you apply that not just to your work life, but to your life in general?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Okay, so I'll tell you a story that happened recently. So in September of last year, my dad passed away. And my, married for 43 years. And I have a brother, but my brother's no longer in the picture. And my mom, she, she married very young. And she went from her family's house into my father's house. And he pretty much took care of her his entire life. Right. And when he way he you know he he had really great qualities about him but he also left a big pile of crap for us to clean up you know was that surprising to you.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
I thought in full transparency that if I had to clean up after one of my parents, it would have to be my mom and not my dad. Because he always talked about having really strong work ethics and values and, you know, being prepared for emergencies. And I quickly figured out that he had a skeleton, a closet full of skeletons. And part of the closet full of is that he had not financially prepared for his passing.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Now, he was young. He was only 64. And I don't think he anticipated it. Nobody anticipated it was really out of the blue. But what happened was in dealing with all of that mess and trying to unravel that gigantic, tangled ball of yarn, you know, we pretty much had to become investigators. And I say we, because, you know, it was me holding my mom's hand through the entire process and saying, okay, where do we go to find this document?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And if we can't find this document, then we're going to have to figure out how to get that document. How do we find out if he had any money with his job? Well, you've got to do this. You've got to call the employer and they'll give you other numbers that you have to call. And you have to call and you have to ask him this question.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
You know, vehicles where we had lost the title. And so trying to figure out, you know, once you start getting the government involved, it's just this bureaucratic nightmare, like what are the steps you have to take and really dissecting it down into, okay, step one, you do this. Step two, you do this. Step three.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Then also looking at who is the community around me that has gone through this before, maybe not the exact same situation, but I might be able to just say, hey, you know, who do I contact for this, you know, this situation? You know, an example is I had met this really incredible business owner who specialized in social security benefits. And social security for me is like, oh, I don't even know how to start navigating that. But when my dad passed away, I picked up the phone and I called him and I said, you know about social security benefits. Do you know how I can get my mom signed up on survivor benefits? And he told me and it was really helpful and was able to give us some insight numbers.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So it's like little things like that that because in starting out my young adult life, you know, having to figure it out along the way, I feel like it really prepared me for this gigantic figure it out so that I could then empower my mom to get to a position where she was financially Um, you know, so going back again to where my dad had been taking care of her. She, she had made no financial decisions in their relationship. She didn't know how to create a budget. She didn't know what money was coming in, what money was going out.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And so, I remember sitting her down at the very beginning and saying, you know, look, mom, we're not only going to make you financially free, but we're going to have your money work for you so that you are in control of your finances. And I remember she just broke down crying because she said, nobody has ever told me that I have that ability and freedom to be financially stowned.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
She was like, I just always relied on your dad. And so it was just like, you know, my whole life has been giving to, you know, working for nonprofits and helping humanity and, you know, trying to make the world a better place. And it sort of just all came together that it was all in preparation to just make sure that the most vulnerable person and my mom could survive.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Like, yeah. It's amazing. I am with you. I just need to tell you that I share that when my dad passed away at 64, interesting. My mom, it had been probably two decades since she had put gas in her own car. Oh, that's unbelievable. And she called me crying saying, I don't even know how to do this. It looks way different than it used to. Your dad just filled up my gas tank every week. And so, like, helping her relearn. I feel that.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
But I also am really interested because one of the things that you said was about freedom and your mom having freedom. And I think I think that word probably means I'm really interested in how that word might align with the subject matter we're talking about today and the work that you do because that word of freedom can be so deep in ways that we don't necessarily understand.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And particularly, I have to say, this is from my own perspective, but particularly for women. Like, what does it mean to have freedom? And for all sorts of marginalized communities.
Annalisa Holcombe:
So, all right, so let's talk about, When I asked you, okay, I said, you know, we're going to talk about change makers and people who are making change in our society. And I always use a word to help us have kind of a theme around what we're talking about. And I even suggested a whole bunch of words to you and said, like, you know, you can talk about this or this or this. And you said, I know what I want to talk about. So explain to the listeners what that were, like what you want to talk about and why you chose that because I, I love it and I can't wait.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yeah. Can we go back to that word freedom though really quickly? Yes, absolutely. I just want to share some personal insight about that. So I'm a first generation college student. You know, as I mentioned, my parents got young very early. They got married when they were 16 years old. You know, I have an older brother, so I'll let you put the pieces together.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
You know, and just as any parents, they wanted me to do better than them. And what that meant is they wanted me to not get pregnant in high school and they wanted me to graduate. There was no conversation of you go to college. And so I, you know, I didn't get pregnant. And I graduated from high school and I go, well, now what I'm going to do? And all of my friends were getting ready to go to college.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And so I'm like, well, everybody says you go to college after high school. So that is exactly what I did. And I packed up my little red Ford Festiba Roller Skate with all of my belongings. And I drove down to Cedar City, Utah. And I went into an advisor's office. And I think this is like a day, maybe two days before school starts. And I said, okay, I came to college. Now what do I do?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
She just looked at me like it was crazy. And she said, what do you mean? And I said, well, I don't know how I'm going to pay for college. And I haven't registered for any classes. And she said, well, you know, let's sit you down and let's get you set up. And I remember she sat me down. And I think she ended up spending easily four hours with me. And we filled out student loan papers, which I had never heard about before. And she found me a job working for a call centers, like one of two jobs that you can get in Cedar City back in the day. And we registered for classes. And I remember it was like the bottom of the barrel classes.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So it was like 18th century Chinese history. And it was a level 400 or 4,000 creative writing class. And let me tell you, the first day I'm in class, the professor pulls me to the side and he's like, what are you doing here? You don't belong in my class. And I said, I've got to have your class because the advisor told me that I had to keep at least 12 credit hours in order to keep my student loans. And I have to have your class. There's no other class for me to go to. Is there anything you can do?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And by the grace of God, he put me on a pass fail and I passed and I honestly think I just barely passed. And he came up to me again and he's like, you need to educate yourself. And you know, you're lucky you pass this class. Don't do that again. Get ahead of the curve, but he's like, I want to see you back in my class when you're ready to take it. And I was like, great, I will do that. And I still have the book that he gifted me.
Annalisa Holcombe:
How nice. Good people to show up for you, though.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Right. In the most simple way. And is this weird thing between like nice, being nice and being kind are not the same thing, right? People can be really nice and not kind, but people can be kind and not necessarily nice. And so, yeah, it's really interesting.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So fast forward many, many years later, I graduate from college. I get a degree in anthropology. I decide that I'm going to work with refugees. And I was at Department of Workforce Services at the time. And so I transferred over to work.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
They were putting together the specialized refugee team because so many refugees were falling through the cracks. And so I was overseeing food stamps, Medicaid, childcare, welfare services. And I just remember thinking that the woman who took time out of her day to sit me down and just give me the resources, just walk me through and tell me, how do I go to college as opposed to you should go to college?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Here I was many years later, because it took me like eight years to finally graduate from college, that I was in the same position where people were sitting in front of me asking me, how do I survive in America because they were coming as refugees with the bags that they could pack on an airplane in tow and that was it and it was well let's teach you that you don't just have to survive that you can actually thrive in America.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And the simplest way is just what are the resources and what are the opportunities and when you said freedom it just made me realize that that's all that having access to opportunities it are having the choices of whether or not you want to accept an opportunity or decline it that's exactly that's what freedom is. And there's so many people that don't even have access to opportunity or know how to find those opportunities and therefore they will never be free and I feel like to wrap this whole story back in like that was the situation with my mom she was never given the opportunity to make choices so she never had freedom. That's a the sad reality of the world we live in right now.
Annalisa Holcombe:
I am so thrilled that you talked about it makes me almost a little bit weepy because it resonates with me so much and I think it will with so many people my my mother I'm also a first generation college student and my mother told me that she didn't care about whether it meant I had a degree or it meant I had a cool job she talked to me about how it meant I had freedom. And it was, she literally used that word she says a bachelor's degree equals freedom and freedom in the way that she didn't have like freedom to attend a parent teacher conference in the middle of the day or freedom to say no to something that you don't want to do or freedom to leave a job knowing you could find another one or freedom to leave a marriage if you need to. She was like, I don't I hope you never need to do any of those things but I want you to be equipped and that piece of paper will help you.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yeah. Yep, exactly.
Annalisa Holcombe:
So let's, and I, I want to get to this because one of the questions, it was really also fascinating to me. And I want to honor this in you is that you talked about something that could be so difficult. I mean, like that memory of showing up in college could be so traumatic for you. And yet you have, you told this story that turned it around into a superpower in your professional life, which is incredible. Like this moment of not knowing and having such a traumatic experience that taught you something important that led you to want to work with people who you knew would have that traumatic experience as well, who you then are serving in a way that you took that and turned it into something incredibly positive. And I think that is an important lesson that I will take away and hold with me because it's lovely.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Thank you. Thank you. So I think, I mean, that leads me to what my phrases and what I wanted to talk about. And, you know, it's, I'm in my 40s. It's been a lifetime journey for me to figure out how all of these bits and pieces and, like, lessons sort of come together and what is, what is my story that I have to…
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And one of the things that I figured out really recently is that one of my absolute core values is that everybody on this planet is worth something. They are worth respect and worth dignity. And when we don't treat each other with that worth. I think it just really hurts us all as a human race, right? And we see it so much these days. We are completely divided. And what divides us are these big topics that we absolutely refuse to come to the table and sit down with each other and talk to one another.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And, you know, while I have my, my own labels for myself, you know, first generation, college student, a woman, at the same time, I also recognized that I was born and raised in American Fork, Utah, and had access to every opportunity you could possibly find, right? A very privileged background. And so as I have lived my life and gathered other people's stories and listen to what they have experienced in trying to to define what my role in life is, you know, it's not to be the person on the stage talking about their woes and their injustices and all of the isms that come with that, right?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Rather what it is, is it's me, and here's my phrase, is just doing subtle, radical movements to be able to push those who are not receiving the worthiness and the dignity and respect that they deserve forward just a little bit so that the unfairness that the world is offering to them can be just a little bit more fair by creating the stage or platform or opportunity to get their voices out there and heard.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So, yeah, so subtle radical. And I'm really into epistemology lately. The root of words, I think it's just so fascinating. And the root of radical is root, right? Meaning that it comes from the base. And it's just this idea or thought or action that grows and just subtly has just this little bit of a turn and springs off into something entirely different. And so it doesn't take, And this is for everybody. It doesn't take a whole lot of effort.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
It doesn't take radical change, although there is definitely a space for that, for the right people. But for everyday people, it's just these subtle little movements, these subtle changes, these acts of kindness, you know, sitting down with somebody who goes to college for the first time, or sitting down with somebody who walked off a plane because they're running from war and genocide and displacement to just say, you know what, I'm going to spend five minutes. I'm going to talk to you.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Like that is such a subtle, radical movement these days that can make an entire life change, the entire trajectory of people change just by little movements. I love that. I looked up radical as well. And it's so interesting because the word can mean so many things. But of course, starting from the root, but people can be radical by being just different from the usual or traditional. Or you can be radical by being just like the traditional but extreme, right?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Like it could be, and it's scientific and it's mathematical because there are like, you know, you think of all of these words that have radical in them. Or I think of I'm a kid of the 90s and rad, radical is cool. Right. So I like to think of your subtle radicalism as also cool.
Annalisa Holcombe:
And I think that aligns with your, like I also think that you're cool and there's some like stories that you probably have for me about your cool background. Which leads me to that like did you always know that you were subtly radical like kid growing up in American Fork, Utah?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yes sometimes um it was society telling me that I was radical so so born I'm raised in American Fork. I am not part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but rather I grew up Pentecostal. For those, yeah, for those who don't know what Pentecostal is, it is the speaking in tongues and rolling on the floor, and there's even sects of the faith that handles snakes, right? Like, it is, it's a radical religion, for sure.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Wow. I didn't even know it was there in Utah. I didn't even know.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
It was this little, little like beautiful church. I remember they had the most beautiful bell that would ring on Sunday mornings called Rock Canyon Assembly of God. I don't even think it exists anymore. But yeah. So, so I had society tell me that I was radical just because of what I was and what I believed in, you know, and I never wanted, I just didn't want to be normal. And so, you know, in high school, I'm pretty sure some people would have called me goth or, you know, alternative, whatever you want to call it.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So I remember, yeah, I remember going to dance clubs at 16. There was one in Salt Lake called confetti and I would go go to that club where they let kids smoke and even though I never smoked. Yeah. So I always had a sense that I didn't want to be the same. You know, and then from there, when I realized that I didn't want to be goth forever, then it was a change over to being ska, being part of the punk seeing, you know, a rude girl, riding scooters around. And it was all about the music, you know. It was all about the message in the music of, you know, and talk about subtle radicalism.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Like music is such an incredible tool to bring people together, but to make people think that maybe systems need to change. And yeah, and so music, I remember going to this concert and it was in the industrial part of Salt Lake. And, you know, the crowds were definitely fighting with one another and my boyfriend, who's now my husband at the time was like, oh, we got to get out of here. This is not going to end up good. And as we're walking outside, the riot police show up. And we're like, oh, my gosh, okay, we're out of here for sure.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yeah, but it was, it was something to give a young person without any direction at the time a little bit of meaning and something to critically think about and listening to the lyrics and the music and why are people saying what it is that they're saying through these songs.
Annalisa Holcombe:
That's so interesting. When you think um subtle radicalism how does that express itself um I understand how I'd express itself as you were growing up but how do you then apply it in a professional sense?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
I'll definitely talk about the work that I do at utah global diplomacy Um, so, so Utah global diplomacy being a nonprofit, uh, for 60 years, it's, it's soft power diplomacy. It is diplomacy that is for the people as opposed to diplomacy that is for the governments.
Annalisa Holcombe:
What does that mean? Can I, I apologize for interrupting, but like, what's the difference between diplomacy for the people and diplomacy for the governments. What does that mean?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yeah. So, I mean, I think we see this all the time in things, in conflicts that are going on around the world. And I'll take Russia and Ukraine, for example. When the Russian Ukrainian war started, so many people were saying, oh, it's the Russian government that is invading Ukraine. It's not the Russian people. Like the Russian people aren't supporting this. It's the governments that are. And so when you think about traditional diplomacy, it is, it is the negotiation between government entities. So it's so much larger than what you or I can do, right?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
I mean, there are think tanks. There are embassies. There are ambassadors. There are policy experts. There is a whole line of people that are influencing based off of these logic models and these policy models of the past on how governments will interact with one another. And what are the consequences like sanctions, you know, God forbid war as part of that is so much bigger. But when we talk about soft power diplomacy, it doesn't require government intervention.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
It could be, and I mean, social media is such a good example of soft power diplomacy. You can get on to any kind of social media platform and talk to anybody from around the world, right? So it's me and you just meeting each other and shaking hands and sitting down together and saying, what do you do and what do I do? And how are we trying to make the world better together? It's just that simple, right?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So examples of soft power diplomacy could be sports, culture, and arts and entertainment. It can be music. It can be books are a really great example of soft power, business to business interaction, all of it that sort of takes the governments out of the equation and just says, we're going to have people meet each other from around the world. And so that's what we do.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
We're Utah's leading nonprofit when it comes to soft power diplomacy. So what we do is we invite people from around the world. It's about 400 people a year, 125 different countries to come here and they have a very specific reason that they're coming here. It could be that they're looking at business relations or government accountability. It could be like we're talking about a program that's archaeology and paleontology right now, which I'm so excited if we get that program. It could be the digital economy, rule of law, interfaith dialogue.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And what we do as an organization is we look at who are the case studies and the people here in Utah that are doing really interesting things to address that same issue here. And we facilitate meetings between these international guests and the people in Utah. And that's the whole idea. It's just to get them to meet each other and shake hands and sit down together and say, what are you doing and what am I doing?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And so, there's something so beautiful about that, that human beings from different countries who speak different languages, who have different backgrounds, ultimately are working on solving similar problems and are also, you know, like we're, there's like this difference and then there's so much similarity that we have across cultures.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And so I'll share a story with you really quickly. So we're part of this larger network of nonprofits. There's about 86 of us across the United States. So almost every major city has some kind of organization like ours. And I was at a conference, and this is when I first started. So I hadn't quite grasped the power of citizen diplomacy just yet. But this woman from Kazakhstan was receiving an award. And during her award speech, she had mentioned that she had gone to the Boys and Girls Club of Greater Salt Lake in Salt Lake City, Utah, and just learned about their model.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
It was an hour and a half meeting. Part of it was like a service project and the service project was them playing with the kids, you know, and seeing what their recreation was all about. And she was so inspired by their model and got all of their resources while she was visiting with them. She went back to her country and she opened up a boys and girls club there. And then she opened up two more. And by the time she had received this award, she had opened up 10 of these clubs in her community and surrounding villages and towns, right?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And I went up to her afterwards and I was like, and I'm a data nerd. I think we all need to be collecting better data, right? So I went up to her afterwards and I was like, this is blowing my mind. I cannot believe that this is so incredible. The work that you're doing based off of an hour and a half meeting. I'm like, how many kids have you served? And she's like, oh, Felecia, I can easily tell you how many kids I've served. But let me tell you the bigger impact of these centers that I opened. It is that when the kids are in these centers, their parents are coming in and taking these extra classes.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And so the kids being in the center are not only influencing themselves, but they're influencing their family structures. And when you influence the family structures, you influence the entire community as a whole. And she's like, that is unmeasurable. Our impact of what we've been able to do with these 10 centers cannot be measured at this point because it has made our entire community more peaceful. The kids are getting in less trouble. It's things that we cannot measure because it's prevention at that point. And it was something as simple as an hour and a half meeting being able to change an entire community.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
That just opened my eyes to how impactful the concept of citizen diplomacy is. And the concept of citizen diplomacy is simply, you know, everybody having the right, even the responsibility to shape foreign relations and it's done one handshake at a time. I love it's the people being with other people as humans and actually seeing each other.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
One more story really quickly. And this one, like, it was heart wrenching. And it was we had a group from Ukraine that was here in Utah right before the war started. Like we put them on the plane the day before the airports were going to shut down, knowing what they were going back to.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And I just remember, you know, I had the honor of taking one of the visitors to a grocery store because she really wanted American cream cheese, right? she had heard about it. She wanted to try it. I'm like, great. Let's go get you some cream cheese because why not? And as we're walking around the grocery store, you know, she gets her cream cheese. We go over to the gourmet cheese section and she finds this Ukrainian cheese in the gourmet section. She's like, this is our equivalent of cream cheese. She's like, what is it doing in your nice gourmet cream cheese section?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And it was just those little pinpoints of similarity of we have so much in common with each other from around the world if we would just be quiet for a minute and listen to each other.
Annalisa Holcombe:
I feel like the theme of listening has been pervasive this season of my recording of these podcasts because almost every lesson has had something to do with how important it is to listen to other people and work your work as a as a citizen diplomat is so important to that can you describe to me how you see like real like what is the relationship between subtle radicalism and citizen diplomacy how do you How do you, how do you link those two in terms of kind of your life path?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
I think it's the handshake that we meet each other. You know, I, in my job of working with refugees and now at Utah Global Diplomacy, you know, every once in a while I pull out a map and I count how many countries I engaged with just through my jobs. And I have not done extensive international travel by any means. And the last time I counted, it's 173 different countries.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
That means that that's amazing, right? It's insane. And somebody asked me, well, what countries haven't you met? And I'm like, that's a good question. I don't really know. And so this time when I was County. I paid attention to the countries that I passed over. And a lot of them are these like really tiny islands that you have to have a very specific reason to go.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
But I think, I mean, the fact that I could meet people from 173 different countries means that when I am listening to the news or reading the newspaper And I see something that is happening in that country. It brings me back to those people that I have met. And all of a sudden, it makes the world incredibly small. And I care about it so much more because those are my friends. Those are the people that I have shared meals with that we have laughed at meetings, that I have gone to their house and met their children. Like it really does bring the world so close.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And I think that if we were able to connect with each other where we stop being so divided between each other and saying, well, you believe in that or you're from that place, or you are this person or you're that is. And instead just recognize each other as friends because we shared something as simple as we just sat down together and met each other and talked to one another.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Like how much more wonderful would the world be if we just thought of each other as friends? And I get like I am I am not naive. I get that this is a very Pollyanna approach to world peace, but it works. It's why those things that you talked about at the beginning, the music and the books and those things that like bring us into someone's life are able to humanize us all and remind ourselves that people, you know, ultimately we're so similar whether like we're still all looking for a way to feed our families and we're still all we still all experience our parents passing away somehow or yeah sometimes we do right like but there's like human experiences that we all can share with each other yeah exactly I'm interested in this idea of both of like the way that you bring diplomacy, which is in fact subtly radical, this I'm going to listen to people and I'm going to reach across a table and shake your hand and share a meal.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Can you describe to me how that diplomacy, subtle radicalism, how does that show up for you in your marriage or your relationship with your child?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
That's, yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, my husband and I, we met so young, right? We, of course, when you're young, you've got those similarities of what kind of music do you like? I like that kind of music, right? And so, so I feel like that has always been part of my marriage foundation is like how can we rock the boat just a little right and I would say I kind of like that though that's kind of fun right and so together as a powerhouse and all of our families are still here in Utah. We just find little ways to jab at thoughts that you know and thoughts these days that seem to be more prevalent than others of why do you think that way and have you thought about this and um you know what what it what would it look like if maybe we started thinking about it in this way and and so it you know…
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
I feel like we're a power couple when it comes to how can we just sort of put that little irritation when family parties are getting together and, you know, being not of the same opinion as a lot of our families, you know, so I think that that's one way that we can do subtle radicalism.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
The, for my daughter, I, we have really interesting conversations after school specifically of like if she's taught something why is why is that taught as truth. And I'll give you just a really clear example so when she was little of course they would celebrate Columbus Day and and talking about all of the amazing things that Christopher Columbus did. Well you know being an adult we now recognize that he was not a good person by any means. And so not when she was so little that she couldn't comprehend the, the horribleness that the world has to offer.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
But when she was in fourth and fifth and sixth grade, it was, well, let's start talking about this. And did you know that Christopher Columbus actually did this? And did you know that because of what he did, has had this ripple effect on this, right? And so just linking these things and trying to get her to critically think through what is she being told and is it accurate? Is there another side to the story?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And in my opinion, I think that those are the conversations we need to be having with young people. We need to be having these critical conversations with young people to think differently because they are the change of the future. They're the change of now. And they're going to do by far better than our generation did and the generation before us. And so how do we empower them with the tool of thinking about others and being empathetic to others so that they can make the world a better place as well.
Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that. I love that so much. And I feel like our young people often teach us that as if it's like in, you know, that whole it's, it's inherent in us to have empathy. Maybe not when we're really small. But like as we get older and we're, you know, a young child, it is my daughter. Even now, if she has a treat, she automatically offers me half of it. Like she will automatically like, would you like to share?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Like there's this idea of, you know, community that is almost inherent. Yeah, yeah, get that out of us as we get older. Yeah, young kids just have this beauty about them that there is unfairness in the world and it is something that needs to be addressed like unfairness is not tolerated and we need to rectify it immediately. They get it, how come we as adults can't get it any longer that there's unfairness and how do we come together to fix the unfairness in the world?
Annalisa Holcombe:
I was thinking about this idea of when you said that you were interested in talking about subtle radicalism and I was trying to think of like what how do I see subtle radicalism happening. And it reminded me of this.
Annalisa Holcombe:
I’ve seen this whole, and maybe this shows my algorithms that I get, but I've seen like this whole social media thing that has to do with how are people micro-feminists, right? Like what are the little micro-feminism things to do? And examples would be if you're in a meeting and someone says, like you always say, like one person said, I'm a leader of an organization and when somebody needs to take notes, I always look at the man in the meeting first instead of the one because we've always been looking at women to take the notes or whatever. Or when I send an email, I, and it's to several people, I'll put the women's names first instead of the man's name. Yes. And it's like a little subtle, very micro feminist thing to do.
Annalisa Holcombe:
And I thought it might align with the idea of subtle radicalism, just like changing small little ways of asking a question or addressing an issue that is not traditional.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Oh, yeah. I'm going to get on a soapbox to defend what you just said. And that is getting names right to me is one of the most subtle radicalist things that you can do. I don't even know if that is a word, right? But, but, but so my name, Felecia, is spelled with two E's instead of the traditional way of two eyes. And I cannot tell you how many people in powerful positions misspell my name, even after I've corrected them numerous, numerous times and said, oh, my name's actually spelled with two E's instead of two eyes. They continue to do that. Like, just that sheer respect of, I'm going to spell your name correctly and pronounce your name correctly is one of the kindest things that you can do to show respect to someone else.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Like subtle radicalism, take a second to understand somebody's name. I think that is so powerful because how often do we do that in situations? How often do I hear people do that, especially with names that don't sound so Americanized? And what we what we hear people saying are things like, oh, I don't, I'm going to try to say it, but I'm going to butcher it. So sorry, instead of actually just asking them in advance. We're saying, can you help me learn how to pronounce your name?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So this is an open invitation. If I spell your name incorrectly or say your name incorrectly, like please correct me because it truly is we are equal and you are, again, worthy of my respect that I'm going to get your name right. That's awesome. When we're talking about people in positions of power.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Is there a way to exercise subtle radicalism as an employer? Because I think like your boss is come into play as a in any type of a leadership role or as a leader of an organization. Have you thought about that at all?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yeah. Excellent question. Because I am definitely I wouldn't say a micromanager, but, you know, I like to be in the know of what is going on. And I think there's a couple of things that, you know, we as bosses can do in the workplace. One is trust our employees. I mean, if we hired them, we should be able to trust that they're able to get the job done. You know, maybe they need some guidance and that's perfectly fine. But they're going to deliver the products that you need them to deliver.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So trust in employees, I think is incredible. I would say, you know, taking a look at the bigger picture of who the people are that are working for you and giving them space to be humans. So we always put, you know, human circumstances before employment circumstances, you know, if you're a working mom or a working dad and you need to stay home a little bit extra in the summertime because summers are really difficult for working parents, then you know what? It's going to be perfectly fine if you work remotely. That's okay. Your child is sick and you need to drop meetings for the date. That is perfectly fine. Don't come to work sick and don't worry about sending your child to daycare sick, right?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
So allowing there to be space for human situations to occur and not having a count against them as being humans. I feel like how crazy radical is that, right? But then also looking at career development and really working alongside them to say, how do we scale up what it is that you ultimately want to do in your career? So like, I've got an employee right now that really wants to work on her leadership skills and public speaking skills. And so I'm trying to find different boards for her to sit on, conferences for her to present, you You know, what kind of speech classes can she go to to be able to improve her public speaking?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And so really looking at jobs and especially for, you know, it's just a different time. People don't stay in their jobs forever any longer, which is perfectly fine. What is the next stepping stone and how can I help you get there successfully? I love that. It's something that we often don't think of. And those are subtly, radically radical things to do as well.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Yeah. I love that we are talking through and then end up talking about our role as bosses or leaders because I would imagine you are probably serving already as a mentor to individuals on your team. And I would love to give you an opportunity to speak about mentors in your life. It's a theme that I have that none of us get here without people showing up for us who may not have even realized that they showed up for us. Yeah. Help us. So is there anybody that you would like to honor by talking about their mentorship to you?
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Oh, yeah. Oh my gosh. There's so many. There's so many. You know, and again, I think this goes back to the very beginning of our conversation when it was like I just I had to figure shit out in order to get things done. And it would not have been possible without the people in my lives who continually show up for me and say, well, have you thought about this? And, you know, you did this. Maybe think about it in a different way.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
The person that comes to mind immediately is Beth Marshall, who was the previous executive director to me in this role as being the executive director of Utah Global Diplomacy. I met her when she was working for the English Skills Learning Center. We were both working with refugees. And I had ran into some professional problems that just really were traumatic to tell you the truth.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
It was it was not a good time for me. I had made some decisions and then I was also bold enough to make some decisions and people said that I was arrogant and it ruined my reputation. And I just remember we would go to these coffee meetings and just talk to one another and say, what are you working on? And it's almost like we take turns. like, you know, she'll spend one coffee meeting listening to me, talk about everything that I'm working through, and then vice versa, I'll listen to her. And then she had a position open at Utah Global Diplomacy and said, I want you to come and work for me because I know you, I trust you. And so I started doing our events. And then a few months later, she had to move to Germany with her husband and she said, actually, I brought you in because I would love for you to be applied to try to be the executive director of this organization.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
And so the continual, like, can I just ping ideas off of you? Can I get your input on this? Or I'm just having a crappy day and I need to just tell somebody how pissed off I am today. I mean, she really has been that professional friend that I've been able to rely on at least for the last 15 years. And sometimes your mentors are your friends.
Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that. I love that the mentor is not like, this is also subtly radical, Felecia, that it's somebody who is not like up above you that you've been looking up to forever. It's somebody who is your peer and has been and has been your peer and has seen you.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Yeah, especially when they saw you during the hard times.
Annalisa Holcombe:
Yeah, exactly. I love that story. That's amazing. Yeah. Thank you. So thank you so much for spending time talking to me today. I think what you're going to bring to the conversation for our listeners is going to be really important and really helpful because we all need to practice a little more subtle radicalism in our lives.
Felecia Maxfield-Barrett:
Oh, 100%. And if anyone gets lost on, how do you do that in your lives? I'm happy to sit down and just brainstorm ideas.
Annalisa Holcombe:
I love it. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. I appreciate it. This is going to be great fun to get out there into the world.
Annalisa Holcombe:
As you may be able to tell, Felecia has extensive experience in understanding and collecting oral histories and storytelling. And she says that she believes that through capturing stories, we can create a sense of self, explore the world, organize and pass on our knowledge to others, and create a sense of shared humanity.
Annalisa Holcombe:
She's certainly done that with us today. Thank you so much, Felecia, for your stories, for your insight, and of course, for your subtle radicalism. As she says, if you'd like to see her nerd out, you can connect with her and ask her about nonprofit management or data collection or music and gardening and outdoor adventuring. She is an amazing bicycle racer.
Annalisa Holcombe:
You can connect with her at LinkedIn, and you can learn more about citizen diplomacy at www.utah globaldiplomacy.org.
Annalisa Holcombe:
And I hope you join us next time, where we will be speaking with Kyle Vandermullen from American Philanthropic, and the focus will be on integrity.<