Ep 25: Priorities with Lee Payne
92,000 Hours
To kick off the third season, we speak to Lee Payne about priorities. What are priorities really? And how do our values inform them?
We discuss priorities in our home, work, and society. Lee answers questions like: How do we put our priorities into practice? Who can we trust to hold us accountable when we don't practice them? And how do we gracefully say no to things that don't align with our priorities?
Lee Payne is the Vice President of Sales and Marketing at Enlinx, a husband, dad, and committed community member.
Complete our Priorities exercise to dive deep into your own priorities as you follow along.
Transcript
Annalisa Holcombe (00:01):
Here we are 92,000 Hours, season three. I'm your host, Annalisa Holcombe. When we started this podcast, we had no idea where we were heading. We just knew we were looking forward to the journey. And today, for our first episode of season three, I am so excited to welcome Lee Payne. It's so fitting that he's kicking things off with me for this season because he and I have a history of kicking things off together.
Annalisa Holcombe (00:27):
Almost two decades ago, Lee and I worked together as founders of the alumni mentoring program at Westminster College. And we even talk about that a little bit during this episode. Lee is the vice president of sales and marketing at Enlinx. He's also a husband, a dad, and a committed community member. He was awarded the distinguished alumni award at Westminster and he holds both bachelors and master's degrees.
Annalisa Holcombe (00:52):
Today, Lee is talking to us about priorities. If you have trouble taking on too much, or learning how to say no, this is the episode for you.
Annalisa Holcombe (01:02):
All right. So as you know, Lee, this is actually your question, but I have so enjoyed asking every single person that has been on this podcast. This question is a way to start the conversation. I think it, of course, just gets us to the essence of who people are. So I know you have this and I've heard your answer in my life, but it could change. So tell us the answer to that whole, boil it down to who you are question, which is if you remove all things, work, volunteerism, sports, church, all of the things that we talk about when we say, what do you do? What are you most proud of as a human being in terms of who you are?
Lee Payne (01:54):
I think there's two or three things that come to mind. The first is my family, my wife, Jessica, and our kids, Clara and Colin. And I think for any parent, you don't realize what that means until they actually arrive and you start spending time with them and you see them go through the different stages of life , and you see their successes and their failures and their struggles and their questions.
Lee Payne (02:23):
So I classify myself as a husband and a dad. And I think that's where I spent the majority of my focused thought is on how to do well in both of those areas. But in addition to that, I would also say that in more recent years, I find myself focusing a lot on how to just be helpful. Be helpful to society, be a helpful human. Be kind, be compassionate.
Lee Payne (02:53):
So that's a newer one for me since maybe you last heard me speak about this, but I spend a lot of time thinking about that.
Annalisa Holcombe (03:02):
That's really interesting.
Lee Payne (03:03):
And doing that.
Annalisa Holcombe (03:04):
So tell me about that. How do you put that into work? I mean, do you wake up in the morning and say, "How can I be helpful today? Or do you just reflect on how you were? How do you actually operationalize that?
Lee Payne (03:16):
I think it's those things you mentioned and a couple of others. A couple of months ago, we go to Sundance every summer with my in-laws and rent a cabin for a few days. It was great family time. But I was shopping around at the gift store at Sundance this last trip. And I found a little journal that inscribed on the cover says, "This is your one good thought of the day journal." So just a few days ago, actually I started doing that and jotting down every day, one good thing that happened.
Lee Payne (03:50):
So some of those are things that happen to me. Some of those are things that I've done for other people. That's really interesting and also horses the reminder, that good things are happening every day, and it's really easy to get really cynical in today's world. We're blitzed with everything that's wrong and all the problems we're dealing with and on and on and on.
Lee Payne (04:14):
So that's a little thing that I do probably as much for myself as anyone else. Right? It's just to remember, there's the good things happen. Let's not forget that.
Annalisa Holcombe (04:22):
I think that's interesting because it kind of goes along with what we want to talk about. So today the underlying conversation, the theme that we want to talk about is priorities, and of course it's lovely that you're willing to talk about that with me. So as I was thinking about this and preparing the questions, I was thinking maybe it's just me and maybe I'm giving away something about myself here, but I've been thinking that we talk about... I feel like we talk about priorities in our society a lot. I hear it a lot, people talk about what we prioritize and we need to set priorities. It happens at work and it happens when we listen to the news and it happens in conversations with people.
Annalisa Holcombe (05:10):
These are my priorities or we have to figure out our priorities, but I think it's almost so prevalent that the word may have almost lost its meaning. So as I was thinking about that-
Lee Payne (05:23):
A fashionable word.
Annalisa Holcombe (05:25):
Yeah. So I looked it up. I was like, so a priority is a fact or a condition that is regarded or treated as more important. So thank you dictionary.com. That's where I got it. I like that they say a fact or a condition. So that's really fascinating right there. Anyway, so I think face value, we probably know what it means, but I also don't know that we, as individuals and this could be me, do the act of prioritization very well. When the verb happens, we're not so great.
Lee Payne (06:05):
What do we do?
Annalisa Holcombe (06:06):
Yeah. So anyway, what are your thoughts on that?
Lee Payne (06:11):
Well, I mean, I generally agree with you that it's become a fashionable word, right? An overused word. I feel like it's the same thing that's happened to the word authenticity. It's very fashionable for a long time and I'm not sure we appreciate what that's supposed to mean anymore. But prioritization for me takes on a lot of forms.
Lee Payne (06:33):
I think at the core, maybe a root cause of perhaps why it's become more superficial in terms of the actionable part of the word is I think we're just a very busy society. And there's a lot of pressure from a lot of forces, meaning if you're a professional, you have obligations at work. You have commitments that you've made. You have maybe commitments that have been placed on you by coworkers and colleagues. I think all of us at some level apply self-imposed pressure and maybe that's legitimate. Maybe it's not.
Lee Payne (07:12):
Yeah. And then I think just society in general, there's expectations that are placed on us by our neighbors or communities or our broader communities. So I think that all of us at some level are trying to juggle all of that. If I spin that and say, "Okay. Well, what are your priorities?" I don't know that any of us... Or I shouldn't say that. I don't know that many of us spend dedicated time really thinking about what are my priorities.
Lee Payne (07:45):
I think we get trapped in saying, "Well, these are my work priorities and these are my family obligations and priorities." These are my personal priorities." Well, okay, just across those three, if you have three in each, now you have 10 priorities, right? That's not prioritizing. That's saying here's all the stuff that I need to do or I want to do, or I should do, or I could do. That's different than prioritizing what's important to you.
Lee Payne (08:11):
I would argue that there's really not a separation in those buckets. If you think of your life holistically, and you're saying, "Okay. What's important to me? What are my priorities? Well, one of them might be family for me. I know it is for me. One of them might be career and the type of career that I want. Another of them might be that I want to be a respected member of my community or my religion, or whatever it may be.
Lee Payne (08:38):
But I wouldn't place them in different buckets. I would just say, as a human, this is what's important to me and I'm going to try and prioritize my life, meaning my days, my activities, my thought, what I do with my time in these areas. And I personally, again, going back to one of my mentors, a different one than I mentioned earlier. He made a comment to me that over the course of his life, and he was probably in his 50s at the time that he determined he could handle three or sometimes four things at any given time and do well at them and be fulfilled and satisfied as a human and feel like he had some good balance in his life. And that stuck with me.
Lee Payne (09:25):
So I try to have three or sometimes four things that are actually important to me where I place my time and focus, and energy. When I have to make life decisions, I go back to that hierarchy and that's how I make decisions. For me, that works. For a lot of people. I don't know if that works.
Annalisa Holcombe (09:55):
One of the things that with you that I feel like that your act of prioritization that you actually doing it. I remember the first time you did that with me. One of the first times that you and I really had a conversation and I was used to asking people to do things for me and cajoling them into doing it. And you-
Lee Payne (10:20):
Which you're very good at, by the way.
Annalisa Holcombe (10:23):
And you would not be budged. I remember at the beginning, you just said to me, no, and I was like, "Whoa, people are not..." We don't usually hear... People are not really comfortable saying no, and you were. I remember it just shocked me, but also intrigued me because it, I thought, oh my gosh, that's fascinating. I remember your answer because I asked you to do some volunteer work and you said, "I only have time for three things." I remember because you said, "My family comes first, then my career. Then I have time to do one act commitment to volunteerism during the course of the year, and I've already made that commitment. So I can't commit to another one because then the other things would falter. So I'm sorry, no."
Annalisa Holcombe (11:13):
I remember thinking, I need to get this guy in my head to help me do that, but also the clarity with that, because it's that clarity was so kind. It totally made sense to me that I'm not going to try to cajole him at all. He already knew what his priorities were. I'm interested in how he could help people with that. As you and I worked with college students, I feel like that really stuck with them that it was something they could do.
Lee Payne (11:46):
Well, I think a part of it is what I mentioned with pressure. I think the reason that most people won't say no, even when they want to say no is because they feel pressure. That might be because they're used to being an ambitious, high performing person, and that's what they've been built up to be their entire lives.
Annalisa Holcombe (12:08):
I agree.
Lee Payne (12:09):
So it's almost as if the act of saying no is a failure to them, right as opposed to I'm spread so thin that nothing gets done well, but somehow that doesn't get viewed as a failure. Right? But saying no to something does.
Annalisa Holcombe (12:26):
I really think that's so important too. Just putting a pin in that, because with all of the people, I mean, so many of us do that.
Lee Payne (12:36):
Yeah. And to be clear, I'm guilty of that too. I can talk about all of this, but it certainly doesn't mean that I'm perfect at all types of my life. So I think that's a part of it is, is just pressure that we all feel. Again, societal self-imposed maybe legitimately from others in your community. So I think that's a part of it. But in terms of how do we help people maybe implement this or something like this to help them. I really think it comes down to two things, one of which is dedicated thought.
Lee Payne (13:12):
You sort of opened up this segment by saying, okay, here's the definition of priorities and what does this at all mean? Well, everybody has to decide that for themself, him or herself. So here's what my priorities are. And actually spending time thinking about that. You've heard me mention this before, but one way that I do that is what I call the obituary view.
Lee Payne (13:36):
I fast forward to... Right? I've lived a good life hopefully and now I'm gone. Someone is going to ride an obituary for me. Maybe there's a Memorial service for me. I really think about at that time, what do I want people to say about me? What do I want them to remember about being me how I lived my life? If one of your priorities is, "Hey, I'm a doctor and I want to be a world class doctor. Therefore, I'm going to have to work 80 to a hundred hours a week for most of my life, but that's what I want." That's okay.
Lee Payne (14:09):
And you shouldn't let anybody tell you differently. But I would also argue that you need to think about those trade-offs. You'll become the world class doctor, but you might not be a good family person and you might not be involved in your community at all. You might not really spend any time doing things of leisure. Right? If you're good with that, then great, right? I'm not going to criticize you and I hope that no one else would either.
Lee Payne (14:33):
But that dedicated thought and perhaps equally important is what are the priorities and what are the trade-offs. As you're setting those priorities, don't be naive in thinking that somehow your life is going to be viewed through rose colored lenses all the way through, because it won't be. And speaking from personal experience, I know that I've missed out on some wonderful career opportunities.
Lee Payne (15:00):
I know I've missed out on maybe opportunities to join boards, nonprofit, and for-profit. So there are things that early in my career, I really viewed as kind of milestones and achievements. Things like I just mentioned that as I got into this and really thought about it, I'm like, it's not that I'm not interested in those things and that I wouldn't do then, but if they don't fit into the priority schema, then they just don't fit. Right?
Lee Payne (15:27):
I think that gets back to the discomfort a lot of people have in saying no. And it being viewed as a failure because it's like I'm missing out on something. There's an opportunity cost there. It's like, well, that might be true. But if it's not in line with what you say, what you claim, what hopefully you believe your priorities are, then that's okay.
Annalisa Holcombe (15:47):
I think that you'll like this, because look, what I brought. This is actually by my desk upstairs where I work all day.
Lee Payne (15:55):
The priority jar.
Annalisa Holcombe (15:56):
Yep, exactly. As a reminder, it's heavy too. It surprises me how many people don't know the whole big rocks exercise. I try to instill that. So I wonder for you what the big rocks exercise looks like for you? You're the king of the big rocks exercise. Nobody does it better than you. So could you use a little bit of your, how you do that with your life as an example of how individuals can walk through the thinking about what really matters?
Lee Payne (16:37):
I think it's a great object lesson to help us all understand that there's a million things every day that we all do, most of which we don't think about because they're more routine than anything else. Right? And that's the mundane. It's the taking care of the dishes and taking out the garbage and running the kids to their activities and whatever it is. I wouldn't categorize those as the big rocks, right? There's all things that we all have to do every day, regardless of whether we want to do them or not. It's just how the world goes round.
Annalisa Holcombe (17:09):
You really have to brush your teeth.
Lee Payne (17:12):
Right. I really need a cup of coffee every morning to start my day. That's not an option. So as you get deeper into the object lesson, and with the big rocks. The point is course is if we're not careful back to what I call dedicated thought about this, you, if you're not careful, you can fill up your life, metaphorically, the jar with the rocks in it, with all the small stuff.
Lee Payne (17:40):
You can have a solid 16, 18 hour day, every day where you're doing nothing other than the small stuff and maybe a couple medium sized rocks. And really what we're talking about is flipping that upside down and saying, "Instead of filling up your bucket, your life with all these pebbles and all these granules of sand and everything else, put the big rocks in there first, and again spend some quality to time really thinking about what those are for you.
Lee Payne (18:11):
I would argue probably not more than three or four. Then whatever capacity you have left, then you can look at your medium rocks. You're going to have to have some of those pebbles and some of those granules of sand because those are washing the clothes every week. So you got clean clothes. That's getting gas in the car, so you can get to work in that. So it's not an argument of you can just forget about those things you can, but you can place emphasis on what actually matters and then fill in the gaps with the things that are less important.
Annalisa Holcombe (18:42):
I think those gaps, those less important things can so creep up to getting bigger and you have to step back and do it again and remind yourself. Because as you were talking, I was thinking, "Oh, I know this, and I'm not doing it right, as well as I want to right now."
Lee Payne (18:59):
Maybe it's because I've implemented this in my life for a long time that I don't find that I often have to remind myself of things. I know what's important to me and without really thinking about it, that's what happens. So little examples are generally, I'm the one that takes my kids to school in the morning, and we have a little routine. As they're getting out of the car, I say, "So how's your day going to go today?"
Lee Payne (19:27):
I train them essentially when they're very young, and the answer is, it's going to go good. I'm going to have a good day. I'm going to work hard. I'm going to have fun, and I love you. Then I tell them that I love them and they go on with their day. We've done it for so many years now that we all laugh about it and it's a cheesy little thing that we do in the school parking lot. But it's one of those memories that we'll all have forever.
Lee Payne (19:52):
It has an important message, which is stay focused on these things. There's going to be some ebb and flow in your day, but at the end of it, if you can accomplish these three things and you know that I love you and you love me, that's a good place to be.
Annalisa Holcombe (20:06):
Awesome.
Lee Payne (20:08):
So it's little things like that, that become routine that for me, it's connected to one of my big rocks in and of itself. It's probably a pebble, but it's connected to the big rock and it happens every day. Part routine and part because it's fun, and it's cheesy.
Annalisa Holcombe (20:31):
That's what dads are supposed to do. Let's be clear. So you're also aligning with that like silly dad, jokey kind of thing.
Lee Payne (20:40):
I'm trying to.
Annalisa Holcombe (20:41):
But do it in a good way.
Lee Payne (20:43):
I think this aligns with a question I had, which is, is it... Well, I'll ask it because it's already ladened with its own judgment within the question, but is it possible to really understand our priorities or to really prioritize without understanding our values and what we value?
Lee Payne (21:10):
I would say that the superficial answer is yes, right? I mean, anybody can get a piece of paper and say, "Well, here's what matters." I can write that down and here I go.
Annalisa Holcombe (21:22):
But isn't that more like a to-do list? I don't know.
Lee Payne (21:26):
It is. But I guess my point on this is I've said it a few times now, it's back to the dedicated thinking. A gentleman we both know, Mike Bills. I don't think he'd mind being mentioned. He made a comment in a cohort that he and I belonged to 20 years ago and we were, I don't know, maybe halfway through this process. He made a comment one day and he said this is the only time that I carve out to think about me and my life.
Lee Payne (22:00):
I'm like, "Isn't that interesting?" For you and I that know Mike and his accomplishments and his passion and determination in life, it's like, "That really struck me at the time because he was the same way 20 years ago." It obviously has stuck with me because I think, man, are we really that busy and that focused on outcomes, right? What we would call successes, and achievements, and progress, and ambition, and all those kinds of words that we actually don't take any time to really think about what do I value to your point?
Lee Payne (22:38):
Are my values aligned with how I live my life or set another way, my priorities in life. Sadly, I don't think that a lot of people are there. Not because they're not capable, but because they don't carve out some dedicated time to really think about where am I at? Do I like where I'm at? If I don't like where I'm at, or I feel misaligned, why is that? What should I do about it?
Lee Payne (23:08):
Something I've always admired about you is I think that for a lot of people it's scary to actually change. I think a lot of people can identify intrinsically like, no, this is out of whack and I don't like it. That might be a bad relationship or it might be I really hate my job, but I feel walked in because of the money I make or whatever it is. But to actually make that change, that's hard and that's scary.
Lee Payne (23:35):
So a few minutes ago you asked me about how can we help people that are listening, maybe implement this if it's meaningful to them? One of the things I'd mentioned connected to this is the value and the experience. And going back to your example of when I told you now. It's like I knew because I'd done it many times before then, but it's okay. Most people are like, "All right. That didn't work out the way that I wanted, but he's still a good guy and I'll see him around. We'll have a drink and we'll catch up, and whatever." And that's great.
Lee Payne (24:13):
Occasionally, there'll be people that really won't like it and you probably won't see him around anymore, and that's okay. So I would suggest to people that the outcome is probably not as bad as scary as you think when you start maybe giving things at lower priority in your life or maybe cutting them out altogether.
Lee Payne (24:32):
I think there's a perception that that's just this big, scary, horrible thing that's going to somehow mess up my life and that's just not been my experience. And the other thing I would offer on that point is the idea of a personal board of directors is not new. That's been out there for a long time, but I think that's also important with things like this is who are your two or three or four people that will be brutally honest with you.
Lee Payne (24:59):
And they'll have the uncomfortable conversations with you if you've committed to them that you're going to make sort certain changes or you're revamping your priorities. You want those people to be aware of that and you want them to hold you accountable and say, "Hey, Annalisa, you told me you were going to make this change and that change, but that's not happening. That's not what I'm seeing."
Lee Payne (25:24):
Right, it obviously doesn't have to be mean or critical or anything like that, but these are trusted advisors in your life who value your opinion or whose opinions you value and who you trust. You know, that what they say is coming from a good place and it's well meaning. I think that's another tool that people can use to really catalyze them and keep them on track when it comes to making changes like this.
Annalisa Holcombe (25:53):
I think that's important. I want to make sure that we come back to that idea of personal board of directors and how that can help you with your priorities. But I also want to go to priorities and values and at work, because I had read this article that was actually a military article. It was in the military times or something. So that was interesting to me, but it was about the person wrote that there's a difference between priorities and values at work, and the person wrote a whole thing saying safety is not a priority, it's a value. Because our priorities might change on the battlefield, but safety will never change. It has to be so deeply embedded in our culture that it's even bigger than a priority.
Annalisa Holcombe (26:43):
So it just made me think there's not a lot of... We always talk about values and culture at work. Then we do priorities, and my experience of priorities at work often is we say we're prioritizing, but what we're actually doing is creating lumped lists. We're not taking actually anything away, we're just lumping them into groups and calling that prioritizing.
Lee Payne (27:07):
Which I've been guilty of that plenty of times in my life. It's back to being too busy and taking on too much. I think everyone is guilty of that at some level. But as I was listening it, it's interesting to me that I ask myself the question, "Can you value something that's not a priority in your life?" I went into it thinking, "Well, no." But then as I thought about it, I'm like, "Actually, yes." As an example, I value having a healthy environment, but I'm not actively out there fighting the fight to have cleaner air or whatever.
Lee Payne (27:48):
I do my part. I do little things on a day to day basis, but it's not a priority for me in terms of where I'm allocating in my list of three or four. So that's interesting that I think you can value a lot of things and a lot of people who are not a priority for you in the way that we've been talking about priorities.
Lee Payne (28:10):
So then I flip the question around and say, "Well, can I place a top three priority on something that I don't value?" I think the answer to that is no, because when I think to of my top three, I value all of that for sure. So it's really kind of a thought provoking question to think about from both perspectives.
Lee Payne (28:36):
I also think that the more aligned those are, probably the better you feel about how you're spending your time and your effort. It seems to me that if you're prioritizing things that you don't really value, that you're going to have a little bit of that emptiness inside, or you're going to maybe feel a little bit bitter because at some point you realize you're spending a whole bunch of time and energy on something that you don't really care about or don't care about it as much as you thought you did.
Lee Payne (29:09):
So maybe a better way to frame that is, as you realize those things, maybe that's a trigger to say, "I better spend some time and rethink what my priorities are, because I know this one doesn't feel good to me." Or maybe it's run its course. That's happened to me and I think it happens to most people that something you might value for a long time. Life changes.
Lee Payne (29:30):
So all of a sudden maybe what was in the number one spot becomes the number three spot, or maybe something drops off the list altogether. And that could also be because something else has come out of left field that you are really into. So I think it's important to recognize that not by design, but I think I'd probably speak about these things in such a definitive way that it might inadvertently suggest that just sets your list and that's your list. And that's not the case at all. I mean, my life happens and our priorities will change for sure.
Annalisa Holcombe (30:05):
I feel like the way that you describe this is super interesting because those big rocks, I do think are based upon... Every time we've had those conversations with individuals about what are the big rocks in your life? It's almost always at least one of those rocks is relational. Right? I don't know that I've ever experienced anyone having a lack of something that is either a family friendships, like something in there, partner that's going to be really their dog.
Annalisa Holcombe (30:45):
Something is going to be relational if you have your top three big rocks or your top two or four or whatever. And then others have to do... The more I think about it, there's always this relational piece and then there's one that's like purpose. Why am I here? Whether it's your career or your learning or your religious stuff, what's the stuff that's why I'm here?
Annalisa Holcombe (31:13):
I feel like those two things are almost always there and there's got to be... I don't even know, but I would bet that it's interesting that they probably are value laden in some way, like what you value in your life. But it might even be universal the way that you were talking about, like over time we all care about certain... We all want to be good people. We want to be a good neighbor. We want to have friendships.
Lee Payne (31:39):
Yeah. I think in the core of some of that is just sort of basic nature as humans. We're social creatures. We're meant to be connected. We're meant to engage with each other. You could have a whole nother podcast series on that. But in our core and in my view, it leads to some of the challenges we have societally today is that we're getting more disconnected as opposed to more connected.
Annalisa Holcombe (32:27):
If any of this resonates for you, and you want to dig in further, we wrote a blog with directions on how to prioritize. Just head on over to connectioncollaborative.com/blog/priorities. Do the exercise on core values and priorities, and let us know what you think. For now, let's just jump back in.
Annalisa Holcombe (33:02):
So talk to me a little bit about how you express your values at work. Have you had like when you're doing your priority-
Lee Payne (33:12):
Now, we're getting tough.
Annalisa Holcombe (33:14):
Right? But that's a place... Underneath it all, this podcast is about how... Which I thank you at the beginning when you're like, it's all life because I believe that too. It's too difficult to compartmentalize ourselves. Of course we have to. Because it's all one life and we don't have very many hours in it, so let's live it well. And let's figure out purpose and meaning. So the idea of how our... Of course our own personal values are going to show up at work. Your work is going to say probably, "Here are corporate values or here are..." They'll tell you what they are, but if we don't internalize them, or if we disagree, or if ours are different than theirs, it's a hard place to be. It affects our ability to prioritize our work, I'll bet you.
Lee Payne (34:04):
My hope is, and I think you see a lot more of this in today's corporate world than you have historically is there's a lot more emphasis on these things. There's a lot more emphasis on what I'll call the open culture, right? So then come to us. Go to your manager. Go to your supervisor. Go to your VP. Whatever it is, and talk about these things. So I think that's a big step in the right direction in terms of providing an environment where you truly feel safe expressing discontent.
Lee Payne (34:41):
And in my experience, I've been in both. I've been in organizations where I did feel that trust and I felt like I have those relationships and you could have difficult and uncomfortable conversations. Nobody was offended by it. Everybody looked at it through what I'll call an academic lens. It's like, "Okay, here's the facts and here's one side of the argument. Here's the other one. We are we getting to land?"
Lee Payne (35:06):
Those work well for me, and I think they're overall very healthy. I've been on the flip side, which is where you don't feel that trust, and maybe it's a highly political organization. You've got to be very careful about what you say to who because you don't know how it's going to matriculate through the corporate hierarchy.
Lee Payne (35:28):
Sadly in those environments, I probably have not stepped up. I've not expressed, "Hey, we really seem to be screwing up here or hey, I think we're missing a big opportunity here. And that's a personal failure on my side that grinds on me. But I also think it's honest in that we all have the pressures of okay, if the economy just tanked and this is what we got and there's not a whole lot of opportunity out there right now, then maybe I have to play the game, for lack of a better term.
Annalisa Holcombe (36:04):
Yeah.
Lee Payne (36:05):
I think we're all guilty of that at some level. But I would argue that has more to do with the corporate culture and environment that's been set by the people who are in leadership roles as opposed to other employees even that are in some leadership roles that don't feel like they are in a place where they can express that without some serious repercussions.
Annalisa Holcombe (36:36):
I feel like as time has gone on, the workplace of the past where my parents worked, it was like the priority for employees was employment. I have a job and I have security. Like stability and security I feel like was the priority. Then for my age, it was more like... I think my work... My age started to get a little bit more about work life balance and some of that. And I'm going to leave if you don't pay me appropriately. It was less about stability and more about respect or something. I need to have respect and a little bit more autonomy.
Lee Payne (37:22):
It could be fairness.
Annalisa Holcombe (37:26):
Yeah, maybe it's fairness. And then I feel like my daughter's age as she's coming out of college, I feel like she's saying a lot more about those things are given now. In fact, I don't care about stability as much. I care about fairness. But now I also really want to make sure I have purpose, and it's clear that where I align with the purpose of this work is really clear for me.
Lee Payne (37:53):
Right. I would agree with you. I feel bad that at some level. I think for me, it's not generational. I think it's I'm deep enough, far enough into my career now back to priorities. What matters to me on the professional side is much different than what mattered to me even five years ago.
Lee Payne (38:17):
Part of that is age. Part of that's just different worldview, right? Circumstances change. But I am far more concerned moving forward with the people I'm working with and the opportunity that we have and kind of what the day to day life looks like than I am with how much money I'm going to make or is there three runs on the ladder that I can ascend in the next two years? That was definitely me for most of my career.
Lee Payne (38:52):
I would suspect in part that's because of your daughter's generation, right? They're forcing change. And I'm at the level in the hierarchy now where I have to facilitate and accommodate that change, but it also…
Annalisa Holcombe (39:08):
Changes you.
Lee Payne (39:09):
Right. It's interesting just as things flow and it's obviously dynamic, and your daughter's generation and my children as well being a little bit younger, but they are far more concerned with making an impact on the world, and they are far more concerned with what I'll call the global state of affairs than they are with what does this mean to me? I think what does this mean to me is implied in there, but that just kind of assume that if I do these things, I'll be fine.
Annalisa Holcombe (39:47):
I think that's right. I just want to ask you a question about are bigger society priorities.
Lee Payne (40:00):
Yeah.
Annalisa Holcombe (40:03):
I don't even know what my question is, because I'm thinking about I feel like we have societal priorities that are playing out in here are these priorities and here are these priorities, and they're so different, when we know that as humans, like you said, at the beginning of this, we're more similar than we are different, but I feel like our society is taking us into thinking that our priorities face other directions. I don't know. What do you think?
Lee Payne (40:34):
I think I know what you're at asking about. We've heard it for years now that how divisive American society is right now, and maybe globally. I don't know for sure. We've all heard that. We've all read about it.
Annalisa Holcombe (40:52):
I went to a luncheon two days ago where a person has written a book about this and went back and looked at economics and culture and all sorts of aspects of American society and has determined that we have not been so divided the last time we were this divided was the Civil War. Yeah.
Lee Payne (41:17):
That doesn't surprise me that people who are doing this research and really digging in are coming to that conclusion. I think the difference now compared to then is it feels to me like we're living in a time when the instant access to information, but not having the... As I said earlier, the critical thinking skills to determine what matters and what doesn't. What's truth and what's not. I've heard the term cancel culture, which really doesn't mean anything to me. That's a confusing term to me.
Lee Payne (41:58):
I don't feel like we're trying to cancel each other out. I feel like we're just bickering and we bicker about everything. COVID certainly hasn't helped that. I think it has us all more edgy and less willing to be tolerant in patient and good listeners.
Lee Payne (42:14):
But what I'm reminded of is I just had a after work drink and a snack with a friend a couple of days ago. Brilliant, brilliant guy. I sat there listening. Were just chitchatting about different things. I'm like, "See? These people are still out there." I think that the large majority of us do behave that way, but we have all of this information and the inability to process it accordingly.
Lee Payne (42:49):
I really do think that's a part of the problem. For me, it goes back to two things. My dad used to say all the time. Common sense. And I feel like as a society, we're so lost in trying to be granular and sophisticated and complex and data modeling and all this stuff. Right? I'm like have we just simply lost sight of common sense because a lot of the arguments. I hear a lot of the things I read, I watch very little television, but when I occasionally do, I'm reminded of why I don't, because I'm like, "Are you kidding me? What's going on here?"
Lee Payne (43:34):
So I really do wonder about that. Have we just lost sight of good old fashioned common sense? Does this make sense? So that's one element of it. I think the other element is no matter what you want to believe, you have an endless supply of information to support your position. I would argue that it's intellectual laziness and people for whatever reason, whatever set of circumstances is.
Lee Payne (44:04):
They're unhappy with their life situation. They're blaming others. I mean, we could go on and on. Anybody could name countless examples of this. Instead of saying, "What can I do about this? What's my culpability in my circumstances?" More importantly, what are the things I can do to improve my circumstances. It seems to me that instead they play the blame game and they, again, have an endless supply of information to support whatever they've predetermined is the reason why. And again, I just classify that as intellectual laziness.
Annalisa Holcombe (44:44):
I also think it has so much to do, and that's like the whole Brene Brown thing that has to do with our blame is the way that we discharge our fear. No wonder we're blaming each other so much for COVID. We're all afraid.
Lee Payne (45:01):
Right. I mean, even before COVID, it was a lot about the socioeconomic circumstances of a lot of people. I'm certainly not passing judgment. There's a whole host of reasons that people can be in a difficult situation. Some of which they may have had no control over. I'm not naive to that, but I feel like a big difference between when I was a kid and the messages that I think back on now that my parents and the broader community and just my friends. Just the environment we were raised in feels to me like it was a lot more about how are you going to take care of you. What are you going to do about your problems, right? Your problems didn't become everybody else's problems.
Lee Payne (45:50):
You didn't have a whole bunch of people that huddled around you and gave you all of the answers. There was much more of an expectation of we'll help you. We'll talk with you." But it's on you. You go figure this out. And that's just not the feel that I get in today's world. I, I get much more of the blame feel. It's not that we didn't blame people when I was a kid or you get in trouble for this or that. That was your default answer. Well, so and so.
Annalisa Holcombe (46:23):
Yeah.
Lee Payne (46:23):
Right? But it wasn't tolerated at least in my family and the environment I grew up in. Just hypothesizing. But those are some of the things that I see that feel different to me than 20, 30, 40 years ago. And before that, I think.
Annalisa Holcombe (46:45):
It's really interesting to think about that and how our society develops priorities over time and how that plays out in our own lives even though we might not be the decision makers about what is the priority in our society. I also want to make sure that I ask you... I want to go back to something that you said earlier that I said I would go back to, and it was the comment you made about personal board of directors. I, as you know, deeply believe in the role that mentors play in our lives.
Annalisa Holcombe (47:16):
So I wanted to ask you about that, but with the view of a personal board of directors. Could you tell us just to talk to the listeners a little bit about what that means, the idea of your personal board of directors like how you may have created that for yourself? And then third, tell us who you respect and why? What are the characteristics of the individuals that might be on your personal board of directors?
Lee Payne (47:49):
That's great set of questions. First off, what it means to me, I think in, in the simplest form, it's a group of people that you trust and you value their insight and opinions. Sometimes those are specifically about me. What's going on in my life and things that I'm challenged with and grappling with. Other times, it's just life like the conversation we were just having.
Lee Payne (48:21):
Let's talk with some intelligent people who have some interesting thought and perspective on what's going on out there. Those are the kind of things that I value intellect, honesty, authenticity. Probably those three more than anything else. I think your second one was how-
Annalisa Holcombe (48:45):
How did you-
Lee Payne (48:47):
How did I do that?
Annalisa Holcombe (48:49):
Yeah. How can a person actually get a personal board... We can talk about it, but I think in real life like, then what? How do I do this?
Lee Payne (48:58):
Right. So for me, I have the benefit of having mentoring when I was a young man. So that was a catalyst for me. I really had the benefit of spending time with some really great people over the course of an academic year. So two or three of those I've stayed in touch with. At one point that I would make is the term makes it sound like it's this really formalized like we get together once a month and we sit around.
Annalisa Holcombe (49:27):
Somebody calls it to order.
Lee Payne (49:28):
Right. And for me, it's not that at all. It it's much more of a, I've had opportunities in the past to develop relationships with these people. Some formalized environments. Some just people I've met over time that you develop a close relationship with. So I'll reach out to them when I have questions. It's not that we all come together with our secret handshake. It's not that. I send an email or I make a phone call or some combination and we discuss whatever is going on. And it's been very selfish, frankly, when something's happening with me.
Lee Payne (50:13):
For most of them, they're much further along in life. So I don't know that they need me in that capacity. They've got their own people that they engage with that way. So I think in terms of how would listeners go about that, I think you just have to identify a list of people in your life that have the characteristics that you want in your personal board of directors. And again, I would recommend that there are people that'll be honest with you, even when it's difficult, that they'll be genuine and authentic in their relationship with you.
Lee Payne (50:46):
I would hope that they would be intelligent people who can offer diverse perspectives on whatever it is you're discussing. Because we all learn from that and I think everybody knows that. Then of course other things that may be important to the listeners in terms of what they want in that group of people. Then I think the third part of it, what who are those people in my life.
Annalisa Holcombe (51:13):
Yeah, the characteristics.
Lee Payne (51:14):
I mentioned a couple of my mentors, they have all of those things that I've mentioned in terms of characteristics, the authenticity, the intellect, wisdom. Just a lot more life experience in their case than I have both business wise, as well as just life. So they obviously have perspective and experience to share there. My wife is one of those people for me.
Annalisa Holcombe (51:43):
Awesome. Well, that's what I have.
Lee Payne (51:48):
It's been a good, this whole thing today though.
Annalisa Holcombe (51:49):
You probably have a priority of doing something with a family member today that I'm getting in the way of.
Lee Payne (51:55):
Yeah. Soccer. We got all kinds of stuff going on.
Annalisa Holcombe (51:59):
Awesome. Thank you for that.
Lee Payne (52:01):
I've really, really enjoyed it. I was excited when you reached out and it's caused me to think about things that I haven't thought about in a long time. There are things that I enjoy thinking about and talking about. So thanks for having me on. I hope it was valuable for the listeners. I hope people could take a nugget or two a way that's meaningful for them. Stay well, everybody. Onward and upward as I like to say it.
Annalisa Holcombe (52:41):
My deep appreciation to my friend, Lee Payne. You can connect with him on LinkedIn. We hope you'd take some time with that core values and priority work on our blog at connectioncollaborative.com. It's the first step in figuring out your own priorities. Next week, we'll be joined by Troy Hooton, entrepreneur, CPA and comedian. Of course, we'll be talking about humor. Join us.
Annalisa Holcombe (00:01):
Here we are 92,000 Hours, season three. I'm your host, Annalisa Holcombe. When we started this podcast, we had no idea where we were heading. We just knew we were looking forward to the journey. And today, for our first episode of season three, I am so excited to welcome Lee Payne. It's so fitting that he's kicking things off with me for this season because he and I have a history of kicking things off together.
Annalisa Holcombe (00:27):
Almost two decades ago, Lee and I worked together as founders of the alumni mentoring program at Westminster College. And we even talk about that a little bit during this episode. Lee is the vice president of sales and marketing at Enlinx. He's also a husband, a dad, and a committed community member. He was awarded the distinguished alumni award at Westminster and he holds both bachelors and master's degrees.
Annalisa Holcombe (00:52):
Today, Lee is talking to us about priorities. If you have trouble taking on too much, or learning how to say no, this is the episode for you.
Annalisa Holcombe (01:02):
All right. So as you know, Lee, this is actually your question, but I have so enjoyed asking every single person that has been on this podcast. This question is a way to start the conversation. I think it, of course, just gets us to the essence of who people are. So I know you have this and I've heard your answer in my life, but it could change. So tell us the answer to that whole, boil it down to who you are question, which is if you remove all things, work, volunteerism, sports, church, all of the things that we talk about when we say, what do you do? What are you most proud of as a human being in terms of who you are?
Lee Payne (01:54):
I think there's two or three things that come to mind. The first is my family, my wife, Jessica, and our kids, Clara and Colin. And I think for any parent, you don't realize what that means until they actually arrive and you start spending time with them and you see them go through the different stages of life , and you see their successes and their failures and their struggles and their questions.
Lee Payne (02:23):
So I classify myself as a husband and a dad. And I think that's where I spent the majority of my focused thought is on how to do well in both of those areas. But in addition to that, I would also say that in more recent years, I find myself focusing a lot on how to just be helpful. Be helpful to society, be a helpful human. Be kind, be compassionate.
Lee Payne (02:53):
So that's a newer one for me since maybe you last heard me speak about this, but I spend a lot of time thinking about that.
Annalisa Holcombe (03:02):
That's really interesting.
Lee Payne (03:03):
And doing that.
Annalisa Holcombe (03:04):
So tell me about that. How do you put that into work? I mean, do you wake up in the morning and say, "How can I be helpful today? Or do you just reflect on how you were? How do you actually operationalize that?
Lee Payne (03:16):
I think it's those things you mentioned and a couple of others. A couple of months ago, we go to Sundance every summer with my in-laws and rent a cabin for a few days. It was great family time. But I was shopping around at the gift store at Sundance this last trip. And I found a little journal that inscribed on the cover says, "This is your one good thought of the day journal." So just a few days ago, actually I started doing that and jotting down every day, one good thing that happened.
Lee Payne (03:50):
So some of those are things that happen to me. Some of those are things that I've done for other people. That's really interesting and also horses the reminder, that good things are happening every day, and it's really easy to get really cynical in today's world. We're blitzed with everything that's wrong and all the problems we're dealing with and on and on and on.
Lee Payne (04:14):
So that's a little thing that I do probably as much for myself as anyone else. Right? It's just to remember, there's the good things happen. Let's not forget that.
Annalisa Holcombe (04:22):
I think that's interesting because it kind of goes along with what we want to talk about. So today the underlying conversation, the theme that we want to talk about is priorities, and of course it's lovely that you're willing to talk about that with me. So as I was thinking about this and preparing the questions, I was thinking maybe it's just me and maybe I'm giving away something about myself here, but I've been thinking that we talk about... I feel like we talk about priorities in our society a lot. I hear it a lot, people talk about what we prioritize and we need to set priorities. It happens at work and it happens when we listen to the news and it happens in conversations with people.
Annalisa Holcombe (05:10):
These are my priorities or we have to figure out our priorities, but I think it's almost so prevalent that the word may have almost lost its meaning. So as I was thinking about that-
Lee Payne (05:23):
A fashionable word.
Annalisa Holcombe (05:25):
Yeah. So I looked it up. I was like, so a priority is a fact or a condition that is regarded or treated as more important. So thank you dictionary.com. That's where I got it. I like that they say a fact or a condition. So that's really fascinating right there. Anyway, so I think face value, we probably know what it means, but I also don't know that we, as individuals and this could be me, do the act of prioritization very well. When the verb happens, we're not so great.
Lee Payne (06:05):
What do we do?
Annalisa Holcombe (06:06):
Yeah. So anyway, what are your thoughts on that?
Lee Payne (06:11):
Well, I mean, I generally agree with you that it's become a fashionable word, right? An overused word. I feel like it's the same thing that's happened to the word authenticity. It's very fashionable for a long time and I'm not sure we appreciate what that's supposed to mean anymore. But prioritization for me takes on a lot of forms.
Lee Payne (06:33):
I think at the core, maybe a root cause of perhaps why it's become more superficial in terms of the actionable part of the word is I think we're just a very busy society. And there's a lot of pressure from a lot of forces, meaning if you're a professional, you have obligations at work. You have commitments that you've made. You have maybe commitments that have been placed on you by coworkers and colleagues. I think all of us at some level apply self-imposed pressure and maybe that's legitimate. Maybe it's not.
Lee Payne (07:12):
Yeah. And then I think just society in general, there's expectations that are placed on us by our neighbors or communities or our broader communities. So I think that all of us at some level are trying to juggle all of that. If I spin that and say, "Okay. Well, what are your priorities?" I don't know that any of us... Or I shouldn't say that. I don't know that many of us spend dedicated time really thinking about what are my priorities.
Lee Payne (07:45):
I think we get trapped in saying, "Well, these are my work priorities and these are my family obligations and priorities." These are my personal priorities." Well, okay, just across those three, if you have three in each, now you have 10 priorities, right? That's not prioritizing. That's saying here's all the stuff that I need to do or I want to do, or I should do, or I could do. That's different than prioritizing what's important to you.
Lee Payne (08:11):
I would argue that there's really not a separation in those buckets. If you think of your life holistically, and you're saying, "Okay. What's important to me? What are my priorities? Well, one of them might be family for me. I know it is for me. One of them might be career and the type of career that I want. Another of them might be that I want to be a respected member of my community or my religion, or whatever it may be.
Lee Payne (08:38):
But I wouldn't place them in different buckets. I would just say, as a human, this is what's important to me and I'm going to try and prioritize my life, meaning my days, my activities, my thought, what I do with my time in these areas. And I personally, again, going back to one of my mentors, a different one than I mentioned earlier. He made a comment to me that over the course of his life, and he was probably in his 50s at the time that he determined he could handle three or sometimes four things at any given time and do well at them and be fulfilled and satisfied as a human and feel like he had some good balance in his life. And that stuck with me.
Lee Payne (09:25):
So I try to have three or sometimes four things that are actually important to me where I place my time and focus, and energy. When I have to make life decisions, I go back to that hierarchy and that's how I make decisions. For me, that works. For a lot of people. I don't know if that works.
Annalisa Holcombe (09:55):
One of the things that with you that I feel like that your act of prioritization that you actually doing it. I remember the first time you did that with me. One of the first times that you and I really had a conversation and I was used to asking people to do things for me and cajoling them into doing it. And you-
Lee Payne (10:20):
Which you're very good at, by the way.
Annalisa Holcombe (10:23):
And you would not be budged. I remember at the beginning, you just said to me, no, and I was like, "Whoa, people are not..." We don't usually hear... People are not really comfortable saying no, and you were. I remember it just shocked me, but also intrigued me because it, I thought, oh my gosh, that's fascinating. I remember your answer because I asked you to do some volunteer work and you said, "I only have time for three things." I remember because you said, "My family comes first, then my career. Then I have time to do one act commitment to volunteerism during the course of the year, and I've already made that commitment. So I can't commit to another one because then the other things would falter. So I'm sorry, no."
Annalisa Holcombe (11:13):
I remember thinking, I need to get this guy in my head to help me do that, but also the clarity with that, because it's that clarity was so kind. It totally made sense to me that I'm not going to try to cajole him at all. He already knew what his priorities were. I'm interested in how he could help people with that. As you and I worked with college students, I feel like that really stuck with them that it was something they could do.
Lee Payne (11:46):
Well, I think a part of it is what I mentioned with pressure. I think the reason that most people won't say no, even when they want to say no is because they feel pressure. That might be because they're used to being an ambitious, high performing person, and that's what they've been built up to be their entire lives.
Annalisa Holcombe (12:08):
I agree.
Lee Payne (12:09):
So it's almost as if the act of saying no is a failure to them, right as opposed to I'm spread so thin that nothing gets done well, but somehow that doesn't get viewed as a failure. Right? But saying no to something does.
Annalisa Holcombe (12:26):
I really think that's so important too. Just putting a pin in that, because with all of the people, I mean, so many of us do that.
Lee Payne (12:36):
Yeah. And to be clear, I'm guilty of that too. I can talk about all of this, but it certainly doesn't mean that I'm perfect at all types of my life. So I think that's a part of it is, is just pressure that we all feel. Again, societal self-imposed maybe legitimately from others in your community. So I think that's a part of it. But in terms of how do we help people maybe implement this or something like this to help them. I really think it comes down to two things, one of which is dedicated thought.
Lee Payne (13:12):
You sort of opened up this segment by saying, okay, here's the definition of priorities and what does this at all mean? Well, everybody has to decide that for themself, him or herself. So here's what my priorities are. And actually spending time thinking about that. You've heard me mention this before, but one way that I do that is what I call the obituary view.
Lee Payne (13:36):
I fast forward to... Right? I've lived a good life hopefully and now I'm gone. Someone is going to ride an obituary for me. Maybe there's a Memorial service for me. I really think about at that time, what do I want people to say about me? What do I want them to remember about being me how I lived my life? If one of your priorities is, "Hey, I'm a doctor and I want to be a world class doctor. Therefore, I'm going to have to work 80 to a hundred hours a week for most of my life, but that's what I want." That's okay.
Lee Payne (14:09):
And you shouldn't let anybody tell you differently. But I would also argue that you need to think about those trade-offs. You'll become the world class doctor, but you might not be a good family person and you might not be involved in your community at all. You might not really spend any time doing things of leisure. Right? If you're good with that, then great, right? I'm not going to criticize you and I hope that no one else would either.
Lee Payne (14:33):
But that dedicated thought and perhaps equally important is what are the priorities and what are the trade-offs. As you're setting those priorities, don't be naive in thinking that somehow your life is going to be viewed through rose colored lenses all the way through, because it won't be. And speaking from personal experience, I know that I've missed out on some wonderful career opportunities.
Lee Payne (15:00):
I know I've missed out on maybe opportunities to join boards, nonprofit, and for-profit. So there are things that early in my career, I really viewed as kind of milestones and achievements. Things like I just mentioned that as I got into this and really thought about it, I'm like, it's not that I'm not interested in those things and that I wouldn't do then, but if they don't fit into the priority schema, then they just don't fit. Right?
Lee Payne (15:27):
I think that gets back to the discomfort a lot of people have in saying no. And it being viewed as a failure because it's like I'm missing out on something. There's an opportunity cost there. It's like, well, that might be true. But if it's not in line with what you say, what you claim, what hopefully you believe your priorities are, then that's okay.
Annalisa Holcombe (15:47):
I think that you'll like this, because look, what I brought. This is actually by my desk upstairs where I work all day.
Lee Payne (15:55):
The priority jar.
Annalisa Holcombe (15:56):
Yep, exactly. As a reminder, it's heavy too. It surprises me how many people don't know the whole big rocks exercise. I try to instill that. So I wonder for you what the big rocks exercise looks like for you? You're the king of the big rocks exercise. Nobody does it better than you. So could you use a little bit of your, how you do that with your life as an example of how individuals can walk through the thinking about what really matters?
Lee Payne (16:37):
I think it's a great object lesson to help us all understand that there's a million things every day that we all do, most of which we don't think about because they're more routine than anything else. Right? And that's the mundane. It's the taking care of the dishes and taking out the garbage and running the kids to their activities and whatever it is. I wouldn't categorize those as the big rocks, right? There's all things that we all have to do every day, regardless of whether we want to do them or not. It's just how the world goes round.
Annalisa Holcombe (17:09):
You really have to brush your teeth.
Lee Payne (17:12):
Right. I really need a cup of coffee every morning to start my day. That's not an option. So as you get deeper into the object lesson, and with the big rocks. The point is course is if we're not careful back to what I call dedicated thought about this, you, if you're not careful, you can fill up your life, metaphorically, the jar with the rocks in it, with all the small stuff.
Lee Payne (17:40):
You can have a solid 16, 18 hour day, every day where you're doing nothing other than the small stuff and maybe a couple medium sized rocks. And really what we're talking about is flipping that upside down and saying, "Instead of filling up your bucket, your life with all these pebbles and all these granules of sand and everything else, put the big rocks in there first, and again spend some quality to time really thinking about what those are for you.
Lee Payne (18:11):
I would argue probably not more than three or four. Then whatever capacity you have left, then you can look at your medium rocks. You're going to have to have some of those pebbles and some of those granules of sand because those are washing the clothes every week. So you got clean clothes. That's getting gas in the car, so you can get to work in that. So it's not an argument of you can just forget about those things you can, but you can place emphasis on what actually matters and then fill in the gaps with the things that are less important.
Annalisa Holcombe (18:42):
I think those gaps, those less important things can so creep up to getting bigger and you have to step back and do it again and remind yourself. Because as you were talking, I was thinking, "Oh, I know this, and I'm not doing it right, as well as I want to right now."
Lee Payne (18:59):
Maybe it's because I've implemented this in my life for a long time that I don't find that I often have to remind myself of things. I know what's important to me and without really thinking about it, that's what happens. So little examples are generally, I'm the one that takes my kids to school in the morning, and we have a little routine. As they're getting out of the car, I say, "So how's your day going to go today?"
Lee Payne (19:27):
I train them essentially when they're very young, and the answer is, it's going to go good. I'm going to have a good day. I'm going to work hard. I'm going to have fun, and I love you. Then I tell them that I love them and they go on with their day. We've done it for so many years now that we all laugh about it and it's a cheesy little thing that we do in the school parking lot. But it's one of those memories that we'll all have forever.
Lee Payne (19:52):
It has an important message, which is stay focused on these things. There's going to be some ebb and flow in your day, but at the end of it, if you can accomplish these three things and you know that I love you and you love me, that's a good place to be.
Annalisa Holcombe (20:06):
Awesome.
Lee Payne (20:08):
So it's little things like that, that become routine that for me, it's connected to one of my big rocks in and of itself. It's probably a pebble, but it's connected to the big rock and it happens every day. Part routine and part because it's fun, and it's cheesy.
Annalisa Holcombe (20:31):
That's what dads are supposed to do. Let's be clear. So you're also aligning with that like silly dad, jokey kind of thing.
Lee Payne (20:40):
I'm trying to.
Annalisa Holcombe (20:41):
But do it in a good way.
Lee Payne (20:43):
I think this aligns with a question I had, which is, is it... Well, I'll ask it because it's already ladened with its own judgment within the question, but is it possible to really understand our priorities or to really prioritize without understanding our values and what we value?
Lee Payne (21:10):
I would say that the superficial answer is yes, right? I mean, anybody can get a piece of paper and say, "Well, here's what matters." I can write that down and here I go.
Annalisa Holcombe (21:22):
But isn't that more like a to-do list? I don't know.
Lee Payne (21:26):
It is. But I guess my point on this is I've said it a few times now, it's back to the dedicated thinking. A gentleman we both know, Mike Bills. I don't think he'd mind being mentioned. He made a comment in a cohort that he and I belonged to 20 years ago and we were, I don't know, maybe halfway through this process. He made a comment one day and he said this is the only time that I carve out to think about me and my life.
Lee Payne (22:00):
I'm like, "Isn't that interesting?" For you and I that know Mike and his accomplishments and his passion and determination in life, it's like, "That really struck me at the time because he was the same way 20 years ago." It obviously has stuck with me because I think, man, are we really that busy and that focused on outcomes, right? What we would call successes, and achievements, and progress, and ambition, and all those kinds of words that we actually don't take any time to really think about what do I value to your point?
Lee Payne (22:38):
Are my values aligned with how I live my life or set another way, my priorities in life. Sadly, I don't think that a lot of people are there. Not because they're not capable, but because they don't carve out some dedicated time to really think about where am I at? Do I like where I'm at? If I don't like where I'm at, or I feel misaligned, why is that? What should I do about it?
Lee Payne (23:08):
Something I've always admired about you is I think that for a lot of people it's scary to actually change. I think a lot of people can identify intrinsically like, no, this is out of whack and I don't like it. That might be a bad relationship or it might be I really hate my job, but I feel walked in because of the money I make or whatever it is. But to actually make that change, that's hard and that's scary.
Lee Payne (23:35):
So a few minutes ago you asked me about how can we help people that are listening, maybe implement this if it's meaningful to them? One of the things I'd mentioned connected to this is the value and the experience. And going back to your example of when I told you now. It's like I knew because I'd done it many times before then, but it's okay. Most people are like, "All right. That didn't work out the way that I wanted, but he's still a good guy and I'll see him around. We'll have a drink and we'll catch up, and whatever." And that's great.
Lee Payne (24:13):
Occasionally, there'll be people that really won't like it and you probably won't see him around anymore, and that's okay. So I would suggest to people that the outcome is probably not as bad as scary as you think when you start maybe giving things at lower priority in your life or maybe cutting them out altogether.
Lee Payne (24:32):
I think there's a perception that that's just this big, scary, horrible thing that's going to somehow mess up my life and that's just not been my experience. And the other thing I would offer on that point is the idea of a personal board of directors is not new. That's been out there for a long time, but I think that's also important with things like this is who are your two or three or four people that will be brutally honest with you.
Lee Payne (24:59):
And they'll have the uncomfortable conversations with you if you've committed to them that you're going to make sort certain changes or you're revamping your priorities. You want those people to be aware of that and you want them to hold you accountable and say, "Hey, Annalisa, you told me you were going to make this change and that change, but that's not happening. That's not what I'm seeing."
Lee Payne (25:24):
Right, it obviously doesn't have to be mean or critical or anything like that, but these are trusted advisors in your life who value your opinion or whose opinions you value and who you trust. You know, that what they say is coming from a good place and it's well meaning. I think that's another tool that people can use to really catalyze them and keep them on track when it comes to making changes like this.
Annalisa Holcombe (25:53):
I think that's important. I want to make sure that we come back to that idea of personal board of directors and how that can help you with your priorities. But I also want to go to priorities and values and at work, because I had read this article that was actually a military article. It was in the military times or something. So that was interesting to me, but it was about the person wrote that there's a difference between priorities and values at work, and the person wrote a whole thing saying safety is not a priority, it's a value. Because our priorities might change on the battlefield, but safety will never change. It has to be so deeply embedded in our culture that it's even bigger than a priority.
Annalisa Holcombe (26:43):
So it just made me think there's not a lot of... We always talk about values and culture at work. Then we do priorities, and my experience of priorities at work often is we say we're prioritizing, but what we're actually doing is creating lumped lists. We're not taking actually anything away, we're just lumping them into groups and calling that prioritizing.
Lee Payne (27:07):
Which I've been guilty of that plenty of times in my life. It's back to being too busy and taking on too much. I think everyone is guilty of that at some level. But as I was listening it, it's interesting to me that I ask myself the question, "Can you value something that's not a priority in your life?" I went into it thinking, "Well, no." But then as I thought about it, I'm like, "Actually, yes." As an example, I value having a healthy environment, but I'm not actively out there fighting the fight to have cleaner air or whatever.
Lee Payne (27:48):
I do my part. I do little things on a day to day basis, but it's not a priority for me in terms of where I'm allocating in my list of three or four. So that's interesting that I think you can value a lot of things and a lot of people who are not a priority for you in the way that we've been talking about priorities.
Lee Payne (28:10):
So then I flip the question around and say, "Well, can I place a top three priority on something that I don't value?" I think the answer to that is no, because when I think to of my top three, I value all of that for sure. So it's really kind of a thought provoking question to think about from both perspectives.
Lee Payne (28:36):
I also think that the more aligned those are, probably the better you feel about how you're spending your time and your effort. It seems to me that if you're prioritizing things that you don't really value, that you're going to have a little bit of that emptiness inside, or you're going to maybe feel a little bit bitter because at some point you realize you're spending a whole bunch of time and energy on something that you don't really care about or don't care about it as much as you thought you did.
Lee Payne (29:09):
So maybe a better way to frame that is, as you realize those things, maybe that's a trigger to say, "I better spend some time and rethink what my priorities are, because I know this one doesn't feel good to me." Or maybe it's run its course. That's happened to me and I think it happens to most people that something you might value for a long time. Life changes.
Lee Payne (29:30):
So all of a sudden maybe what was in the number one spot becomes the number three spot, or maybe something drops off the list altogether. And that could also be because something else has come out of left field that you are really into. So I think it's important to recognize that not by design, but I think I'd probably speak about these things in such a definitive way that it might inadvertently suggest that just sets your list and that's your list. And that's not the case at all. I mean, my life happens and our priorities will change for sure.
Annalisa Holcombe (30:05):
I feel like the way that you describe this is super interesting because those big rocks, I do think are based upon... Every time we've had those conversations with individuals about what are the big rocks in your life? It's almost always at least one of those rocks is relational. Right? I don't know that I've ever experienced anyone having a lack of something that is either a family friendships, like something in there, partner that's going to be really their dog.
Annalisa Holcombe (30:45):
Something is going to be relational if you have your top three big rocks or your top two or four or whatever. And then others have to do... The more I think about it, there's always this relational piece and then there's one that's like purpose. Why am I here? Whether it's your career or your learning or your religious stuff, what's the stuff that's why I'm here?
Annalisa Holcombe (31:13):
I feel like those two things are almost always there and there's got to be... I don't even know, but I would bet that it's interesting that they probably are value laden in some way, like what you value in your life. But it might even be universal the way that you were talking about, like over time we all care about certain... We all want to be good people. We want to be a good neighbor. We want to have friendships.
Lee Payne (31:39):
Yeah. I think in the core of some of that is just sort of basic nature as humans. We're social creatures. We're meant to be connected. We're meant to engage with each other. You could have a whole nother podcast series on that. But in our core and in my view, it leads to some of the challenges we have societally today is that we're getting more disconnected as opposed to more connected.
Annalisa Holcombe (32:27):
If any of this resonates for you, and you want to dig in further, we wrote a blog with directions on how to prioritize. Just head on over to connectioncollaborative.com/blog/priorities. Do the exercise on core values and priorities, and let us know what you think. For now, let's just jump back in.
Annalisa Holcombe (33:02):
So talk to me a little bit about how you express your values at work. Have you had like when you're doing your priority-
Lee Payne (33:12):
Now, we're getting tough.
Annalisa Holcombe (33:14):
Right? But that's a place... Underneath it all, this podcast is about how... Which I thank you at the beginning when you're like, it's all life because I believe that too. It's too difficult to compartmentalize ourselves. Of course we have to. Because it's all one life and we don't have very many hours in it, so let's live it well. And let's figure out purpose and meaning. So the idea of how our... Of course our own personal values are going to show up at work. Your work is going to say probably, "Here are corporate values or here are..." They'll tell you what they are, but if we don't internalize them, or if we disagree, or if ours are different than theirs, it's a hard place to be. It affects our ability to prioritize our work, I'll bet you.
Lee Payne (34:04):
My hope is, and I think you see a lot more of this in today's corporate world than you have historically is there's a lot more emphasis on these things. There's a lot more emphasis on what I'll call the open culture, right? So then come to us. Go to your manager. Go to your supervisor. Go to your VP. Whatever it is, and talk about these things. So I think that's a big step in the right direction in terms of providing an environment where you truly feel safe expressing discontent.
Lee Payne (34:41):
And in my experience, I've been in both. I've been in organizations where I did feel that trust and I felt like I have those relationships and you could have difficult and uncomfortable conversations. Nobody was offended by it. Everybody looked at it through what I'll call an academic lens. It's like, "Okay, here's the facts and here's one side of the argument. Here's the other one. We are we getting to land?"
Lee Payne (35:06):
Those work well for me, and I think they're overall very healthy. I've been on the flip side, which is where you don't feel that trust, and maybe it's a highly political organization. You've got to be very careful about what you say to who because you don't know how it's going to matriculate through the corporate hierarchy.
Lee Payne (35:28):
Sadly in those environments, I probably have not stepped up. I've not expressed, "Hey, we really seem to be screwing up here or hey, I think we're missing a big opportunity here. And that's a personal failure on my side that grinds on me. But I also think it's honest in that we all have the pressures of okay, if the economy just tanked and this is what we got and there's not a whole lot of opportunity out there right now, then maybe I have to play the game, for lack of a better term.
Annalisa Holcombe (36:04):
Yeah.
Lee Payne (36:05):
I think we're all guilty of that at some level. But I would argue that has more to do with the corporate culture and environment that's been set by the people who are in leadership roles as opposed to other employees even that are in some leadership roles that don't feel like they are in a place where they can express that without some serious repercussions.
Annalisa Holcombe (36:36):
I feel like as time has gone on, the workplace of the past where my parents worked, it was like the priority for employees was employment. I have a job and I have security. Like stability and security I feel like was the priority. Then for my age, it was more like... I think my work... My age started to get a little bit more about work life balance and some of that. And I'm going to leave if you don't pay me appropriately. It was less about stability and more about respect or something. I need to have respect and a little bit more autonomy.
Lee Payne (37:22):
It could be fairness.
Annalisa Holcombe (37:26):
Yeah, maybe it's fairness. And then I feel like my daughter's age as she's coming out of college, I feel like she's saying a lot more about those things are given now. In fact, I don't care about stability as much. I care about fairness. But now I also really want to make sure I have purpose, and it's clear that where I align with the purpose of this work is really clear for me.
Lee Payne (37:53):
Right. I would agree with you. I feel bad that at some level. I think for me, it's not generational. I think it's I'm deep enough, far enough into my career now back to priorities. What matters to me on the professional side is much different than what mattered to me even five years ago.
Lee Payne (38:17):
Part of that is age. Part of that's just different worldview, right? Circumstances change. But I am far more concerned moving forward with the people I'm working with and the opportunity that we have and kind of what the day to day life looks like than I am with how much money I'm going to make or is there three runs on the ladder that I can ascend in the next two years? That was definitely me for most of my career.
Lee Payne (38:52):
I would suspect in part that's because of your daughter's generation, right? They're forcing change. And I'm at the level in the hierarchy now where I have to facilitate and accommodate that change, but it also…
Annalisa Holcombe (39:08):
Changes you.
Lee Payne (39:09):
Right. It's interesting just as things flow and it's obviously dynamic, and your daughter's generation and my children as well being a little bit younger, but they are far more concerned with making an impact on the world, and they are far more concerned with what I'll call the global state of affairs than they are with what does this mean to me? I think what does this mean to me is implied in there, but that just kind of assume that if I do these things, I'll be fine.
Annalisa Holcombe (39:47):
I think that's right. I just want to ask you a question about are bigger society priorities.
Lee Payne (40:00):
Yeah.
Annalisa Holcombe (40:03):
I don't even know what my question is, because I'm thinking about I feel like we have societal priorities that are playing out in here are these priorities and here are these priorities, and they're so different, when we know that as humans, like you said, at the beginning of this, we're more similar than we are different, but I feel like our society is taking us into thinking that our priorities face other directions. I don't know. What do you think?
Lee Payne (40:34):
I think I know what you're at asking about. We've heard it for years now that how divisive American society is right now, and maybe globally. I don't know for sure. We've all heard that. We've all read about it.
Annalisa Holcombe (40:52):
I went to a luncheon two days ago where a person has written a book about this and went back and looked at economics and culture and all sorts of aspects of American society and has determined that we have not been so divided the last time we were this divided was the Civil War. Yeah.
Lee Payne (41:17):
That doesn't surprise me that people who are doing this research and really digging in are coming to that conclusion. I think the difference now compared to then is it feels to me like we're living in a time when the instant access to information, but not having the... As I said earlier, the critical thinking skills to determine what matters and what doesn't. What's truth and what's not. I've heard the term cancel culture, which really doesn't mean anything to me. That's a confusing term to me.
Lee Payne (41:58):
I don't feel like we're trying to cancel each other out. I feel like we're just bickering and we bicker about everything. COVID certainly hasn't helped that. I think it has us all more edgy and less willing to be tolerant in patient and good listeners.
Lee Payne (42:14):
But what I'm reminded of is I just had a after work drink and a snack with a friend a couple of days ago. Brilliant, brilliant guy. I sat there listening. Were just chitchatting about different things. I'm like, "See? These people are still out there." I think that the large majority of us do behave that way, but we have all of this information and the inability to process it accordingly.
Lee Payne (42:49):
I really do think that's a part of the problem. For me, it goes back to two things. My dad used to say all the time. Common sense. And I feel like as a society, we're so lost in trying to be granular and sophisticated and complex and data modeling and all this stuff. Right? I'm like have we just simply lost sight of common sense because a lot of the arguments. I hear a lot of the things I read, I watch very little television, but when I occasionally do, I'm reminded of why I don't, because I'm like, "Are you kidding me? What's going on here?"
Lee Payne (43:34):
So I really do wonder about that. Have we just lost sight of good old fashioned common sense? Does this make sense? So that's one element of it. I think the other element is no matter what you want to believe, you have an endless supply of information to support your position. I would argue that it's intellectual laziness and people for whatever reason, whatever set of circumstances is.
Lee Payne (44:04):
They're unhappy with their life situation. They're blaming others. I mean, we could go on and on. Anybody could name countless examples of this. Instead of saying, "What can I do about this? What's my culpability in my circumstances?" More importantly, what are the things I can do to improve my circumstances. It seems to me that instead they play the blame game and they, again, have an endless supply of information to support whatever they've predetermined is the reason why. And again, I just classify that as intellectual laziness.
Annalisa Holcombe (44:44):
I also think it has so much to do, and that's like the whole Brene Brown thing that has to do with our blame is the way that we discharge our fear. No wonder we're blaming each other so much for COVID. We're all afraid.
Lee Payne (45:01):
Right. I mean, even before COVID, it was a lot about the socioeconomic circumstances of a lot of people. I'm certainly not passing judgment. There's a whole host of reasons that people can be in a difficult situation. Some of which they may have had no control over. I'm not naive to that, but I feel like a big difference between when I was a kid and the messages that I think back on now that my parents and the broader community and just my friends. Just the environment we were raised in feels to me like it was a lot more about how are you going to take care of you. What are you going to do about your problems, right? Your problems didn't become everybody else's problems.
Lee Payne (45:50):
You didn't have a whole bunch of people that huddled around you and gave you all of the answers. There was much more of an expectation of we'll help you. We'll talk with you." But it's on you. You go figure this out. And that's just not the feel that I get in today's world. I, I get much more of the blame feel. It's not that we didn't blame people when I was a kid or you get in trouble for this or that. That was your default answer. Well, so and so.
Annalisa Holcombe (46:23):
Yeah.
Lee Payne (46:23):
Right? But it wasn't tolerated at least in my family and the environment I grew up in. Just hypothesizing. But those are some of the things that I see that feel different to me than 20, 30, 40 years ago. And before that, I think.
Annalisa Holcombe (46:45):
It's really interesting to think about that and how our society develops priorities over time and how that plays out in our own lives even though we might not be the decision makers about what is the priority in our society. I also want to make sure that I ask you... I want to go back to something that you said earlier that I said I would go back to, and it was the comment you made about personal board of directors. I, as you know, deeply believe in the role that mentors play in our lives.
Annalisa Holcombe (47:16):
So I wanted to ask you about that, but with the view of a personal board of directors. Could you tell us just to talk to the listeners a little bit about what that means, the idea of your personal board of directors like how you may have created that for yourself? And then third, tell us who you respect and why? What are the characteristics of the individuals that might be on your personal board of directors?
Lee Payne (47:49):
That's great set of questions. First off, what it means to me, I think in, in the simplest form, it's a group of people that you trust and you value their insight and opinions. Sometimes those are specifically about me. What's going on in my life and things that I'm challenged with and grappling with. Other times, it's just life like the conversation we were just having.
Lee Payne (48:21):
Let's talk with some intelligent people who have some interesting thought and perspective on what's going on out there. Those are the kind of things that I value intellect, honesty, authenticity. Probably those three more than anything else. I think your second one was how-
Annalisa Holcombe (48:45):
How did you-
Lee Payne (48:47):
How did I do that?
Annalisa Holcombe (48:49):
Yeah. How can a person actually get a personal board... We can talk about it, but I think in real life like, then what? How do I do this?
Lee Payne (48:58):
Right. So for me, I have the benefit of having mentoring when I was a young man. So that was a catalyst for me. I really had the benefit of spending time with some really great people over the course of an academic year. So two or three of those I've stayed in touch with. At one point that I would make is the term makes it sound like it's this really formalized like we get together once a month and we sit around.
Annalisa Holcombe (49:27):
Somebody calls it to order.
Lee Payne (49:28):
Right. And for me, it's not that at all. It it's much more of a, I've had opportunities in the past to develop relationships with these people. Some formalized environments. Some just people I've met over time that you develop a close relationship with. So I'll reach out to them when I have questions. It's not that we all come together with our secret handshake. It's not that. I send an email or I make a phone call or some combination and we discuss whatever is going on. And it's been very selfish, frankly, when something's happening with me.
Lee Payne (50:13):
For most of them, they're much further along in life. So I don't know that they need me in that capacity. They've got their own people that they engage with that way. So I think in terms of how would listeners go about that, I think you just have to identify a list of people in your life that have the characteristics that you want in your personal board of directors. And again, I would recommend that there are people that'll be honest with you, even when it's difficult, that they'll be genuine and authentic in their relationship with you.
Lee Payne (50:46):
I would hope that they would be intelligent people who can offer diverse perspectives on whatever it is you're discussing. Because we all learn from that and I think everybody knows that. Then of course other things that may be important to the listeners in terms of what they want in that group of people. Then I think the third part of it, what who are those people in my life.
Annalisa Holcombe (51:13):
Yeah, the characteristics.
Lee Payne (51:14):
I mentioned a couple of my mentors, they have all of those things that I've mentioned in terms of characteristics, the authenticity, the intellect, wisdom. Just a lot more life experience in their case than I have both business wise, as well as just life. So they obviously have perspective and experience to share there. My wife is one of those people for me.
Annalisa Holcombe (51:43):
Awesome. Well, that's what I have.
Lee Payne (51:48):
It's been a good, this whole thing today though.
Annalisa Holcombe (51:49):
You probably have a priority of doing something with a family member today that I'm getting in the way of.
Lee Payne (51:55):
Yeah. Soccer. We got all kinds of stuff going on.
Annalisa Holcombe (51:59):
Awesome. Thank you for that.
Lee Payne (52:01):
I've really, really enjoyed it. I was excited when you reached out and it's caused me to think about things that I haven't thought about in a long time. There are things that I enjoy thinking about and talking about. So thanks for having me on. I hope it was valuable for the listeners. I hope people could take a nugget or two a way that's meaningful for them. Stay well, everybody. Onward and upward as I like to say it.
Annalisa Holcombe (52:41):
My deep appreciation to my friend, Lee Payne. You can connect with him on LinkedIn. We hope you'd take some time with that core values and priority work on our blog at connectioncollaborative.com. It's the first step in figuring out your own priorities. Next week, we'll be joined by Troy Hooton, entrepreneur, CPA and comedian. Of course, we'll be talking about humor. Join us.