Transcript
Annalisa Holcombe:
Hello everyone and welcome back to 92,000 Hours. We're nearing the end of the season. Only two episodes left. I hope you've spent some time listening to our prior episodes. Our focus on change makers has been incredible.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Listening to people from the fundraising, philanthropic and nonprofit communities has been really fulfilling for me and I hope it has been for you. We've heard from experts who have talked about everything from devotion to dignity, to connection and trust.

Annalisa Holcombe:
And today, we will hear from Dr. Sarah DeMark. Sarah is the vice provost for workforce intelligence and in credential integrity at Western Governors University. And while that title is a mouthful. What it means is she works on some really innovative and cool ways to make learning more accessible and to create degrees and pathways that lead to jobs.

Annalisa Holcombe:
She leads an innovative team speaks nationally and internationally about learning work in the future. She has a PhD in educational psychology from Arizona State University, and she sits on numerous boards and advisory councils. And today, she will speak with us about optimism.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Okay, I'm so excited to have you on this podcast. I've wanted to have you on this podcast for, I don't know, a couple of years. Ever since I met you, I thought she's interesting. And then the more I get to know you, things that we usually talk about that we do. What is it that you're most proud about of yourself as a human being?

Sarah DeMark:
Yeah, like this one's hard. Like I feel like the like there's pressure to come up with like something like amazing and like something like unique. But like, I was thinking about it. And I would say one of the things like I'm most proud of is that I just, I feel like this, I don't want to say a pressure, but like an obligation or something just around continual like self-improvement.

Sarah DeMark:
And I feel like it's just something that you're never done with. And it's something that I'm constantly trying to be more self aware about something that I'm constantly working on something that like I'm reading a ton on like all the time and so yeah. I don't know if there's like this anyone like moments or this one like big defining thing but I think it's just like knowing that like I'm human and that there's always work to be done and it's or like, yeah, I don't know.

Sarah DeMark:
I would say that just like throughout like all of my stuff it's just like, how do I continue to show up better? How do I continue to like advocate better? Like how do I like present myself better? So I feel like it's like, I like that I'm a work in progress and that I know that I'm a work in progress and that like I treat it as such. So I don't know.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Does it help you have some kindness for yourself knowing that you're a work in progress like do you or are you hard on yourself? Like I need to be the best.

Sarah DeMark:
I would say I'm hard on myself Maybe not so much at work, but I would say like more like in personal life stuff Like this is dumb but like I play tennis and that of course is like also like you know You're never done it improving. And I've got like many, many things to do here. But like, I'm so like, I talk to myself like in my head and sometimes out loud in ways that I would never talk to anybody else, right?

Sarah DeMark:
So like, and I recognize that and it's still like one of those things that are it's hard to stop. So I feel like there's, you know, like many people, there's just constant chatter going on in the back of my head. And usually it's good, but not always. And I try to recognize when it's not and just be like, wow, like, that's not great. Like, you know, how do you like, how would you like, because I don't like playing singles, because I think that's lonely. Yeah. So like, I play doubles, but I would never talk to my doubles partner like that and so it's like why is that okay to say it to my soul when I would never say that to somebody else?

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that you're doing that with yourself because gosh that's right like we are so we're hard on ourselves in ways that are so um like just cruel but also the fact that you're looking at it in terms of like some curiosity like why am I doing that and would I do that to somebody else?

Annalisa Holcombe:
No, no, never. But yeah, I don't know. Like, I think we're, yeah, we're very hard on ourselves. And I think the self talk is can be incredibly negative. And so I like that you talked about though, like that you talked about it in terms of self improvement more than, and it's interesting because you're an educator. And so like people say lifelong learning. So I just, this isn't even like, What's the difference to you between self-improvement and lifelong learning? Is there a difference? Is it the same thing?

Sarah DeMark:
I think it, yeah, but I think with lifelong learning, I mean, it could be about like technology or, you know, something that's a little bit more of like a hard skill. But I think that lifelong learning is also just as valuable if not more so about like learning about yourself, how you show up and how you interact with others and how people perceive you. And so I feel like, yeah, like lifelong learning is also about your own self-development and whichever way that that happens to go.

Sarah DeMark:
Like I think it's, yeah, I don't know. I always say like self-awareness is like one of like the most important things that somebody can have because if there is that self-awareness or that willingness to try to be more self-aware than like anything is possible, right?

Annalisa Holcombe:
Oh, I feel like that's it.

Sarah DeMark:
I feel like the hardest thing, especially as a manager, or like working with people, it's like when people don't have that self-awareness, oh my gosh, like that's just like, it's almost impossible, right? And so, yeah, I don't know. So I try to be really like diligence about like reflection, you know, on my own work and how I show up and how I interact with others.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Well you're speaking like a complete love language to me. That's totally what this podcast should be about and I experienced it recently. My mother recently binge listened to all of these podcasts and there are many seasons And what I thought, like my self centeredness as her daughter was like, she's going to come out of this and say, oh, that you were so good, you're a very good interviewer or blah, blah.

Annalisa Holcombe:
And, or I thought she'd say, oh, this guest was amazing. But what she came out of it with, and she's been retired for 20 years, she came out of it wanting to talk to me about herself and her own experiences. And this whole podcast was about her as she listened to it. I am thrilled because I'm hoping that that's what happens is that by being vulnerable and being willing to show up and talk about yourself at work and yourself at home and hide these different things that you do that other people can see themselves in it and learn something. And yeah, so.

Sarah DeMark:
Connecting, right? It's all about like connecting and that's, I mean, I think that's like a, that's a very nice compliment. Yeah. It was so great. So I can't wait. And this one is going to be amazing because what would you interview your, your mom about?

Annalisa Holcombe:
Oh my gosh. I don't know yet, but I think I'm going to do it. I legitimately think I'm going to do it. Earlier this year in some of these recordings, I've recorded my friend Mark Shreve, who works at Education Advisory Board. And he said, "Annalisa, you should listen to the "Wise" podcast with Julia Louis-Dreyfus, because she, at the end of every podcast, she asks wise women, like older women, questions. And at the end of each one, she calls her mom, and then they talk about the subject a little.

Annalisa Holcombe:
And I was like, That is lovely. That's so lovely. So I would I might talk to my mom about wisdom like Yeah, what that means to her. That's what I'm thinking. Anyway, but with you we're gonna talk about optimism. Okay, I was thrilled because there's a lot of things that I know you could talk about and I threw out like what about this or this or this and you said yes this or this or this and you're the one that said optimism which thrills me because that means that there's something about it that's interest to you. So what is it? What is it about optimism that interests you always and interests to you right now?

Sarah DeMark:
Well, so part of it was, I don't know, like whenever you go through those like values, exercises and things like that, like optimism and connection actually are the two that most strongly like show up for me. And I feel like that's probably not surprising for people like that that know me.

Sarah DeMark:
But I don't know, like I feel it's and again, it's tricky, right? Because it's like, I mean, I'm not the expert on this, right? But I just can tell you about like what I think and like, how do I approach things? So it's a little bit like, I don't know, it's like, who does she think she is talking about optimism. But like, but this is how I like approach things like it's I feel like it's always going to get better. Right. I mean, and there's going to be some things that totally suck. And there's going to be some things that you wish like never happened or would happen differently.

Sarah DeMark:
But I think if you approach it from like a point of learning, a point of growth, and that's hard, like, and And I'm saying this, it's like, oh yeah, you just do this and everything's better, but it's not, right? But I think you have to, maybe it's that aspect of hope, right? Where you think that, okay, no matter how crappy it seems now, it will get better. You will get through this. If things might be different, but there's a path.

Sarah DeMark:
I'm also like, I don't like ambiguity and I don't like not knowing. And so like it drives me nuts, right? And so like anytime, like if you think about like going to a doctor's appointment or something and you have to wait for like tests to come back, like that's the worst, right? 'Cause it's like, I just wanna know so I can like make a plan and like figure it out and move forward.

Sarah DeMark:
But like that's like sort of limbo kind of piece like is hard because you can't like where do you go from there because you don't even know like where you're pointed so I love having like enough kind of information that like it's like okay yes this sucks it can get better-ish sometimes but like we've got to move like in this direction and so like that's that's kind of how I try to think about, I don't know, whatever is going on in the world and like my personal life, work life, it's just, it's like, okay, yeah, like, how do we make it better?

Sarah DeMark:
So, and sometimes like, I feel like that glosses over things. And sometimes it's like, like, feels sort of dismissive of like real life stuff or real life challenges. And like, I do get that for my self-awareness. But so some of it's like a coping mechanism too. I think it's like I can't stay in this muck. Like I have to get myself out of it and I want to bring everybody else out of it too.

Sarah DeMark:
And so some of it I think is just like my own like mental self-preservation just to like not stay just like stuck in like, yeah, the yucky garbage that you don't want to be in. It's really interesting all of this way that you have been describing what optimism means to you and especially as a leader at work because as I was reading a little bit about optimism that's a real thing. That when people surveyed for optimism at work more leaders have.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Um, and I, I like, does that resonate with you? Do you see more and do you see more leadership? And then I'm going to have two parts of that question. One is that like, do you see optimistic leadership, whether at your own place of work or at other places of work that where you work. And then the second would be the planning. Like in some ways that makes so much sense to me because we talk about leaders as visionary And maybe what you just said is that optimism bias coming out of them to say like, I'm getting a set, I don't like the muck, I'm gonna create a vision to get like, I mean, that's a really interesting way to think about it that I had not thought about visionary ass. So anyway, thoughts?

Sarah DeMark:
I think I could only report to somebody that had like a higher balance of optimism. Like I would, like I feel like that would be very just hard and heavy and probably depressing to work with somebody that is always like pessimistic and doesn't have that we can figure this out kind of like mentality. Like I personally would have a really hard time like working in that kind of environment.

Sarah DeMark:
So like I want to work with people that feel like it's possible to otherwise it's like why are we doing this and so I think so yeah so that doesn't surprise me um and like for me it's something that's like incredibly like important and so it's something that like I definitely try to cultivate like within my own team and my own friends and my own groups but also like yeah I I think I would struggle in an environment that that wasn't.

Sarah DeMark:
And then, let's see. So your second question is, like, and that's kind of like, if I think about, and you know, we're supposed to be talking about things like more than just like work, you work, but like, even if I think about like, goals, like, I always talk about like, to my team about, like, sometimes, like, the way you think you're going to get to a goal, like, doesn't work, right? Another group can't do stuff, there's other constraints, there's things beyond like your control, like that's okay, and you kind of have to expect it, but like how else can you get there, right?

Sarah DeMark:
Like maybe like your path from like A to B, like got totally disrupted, but like, what's another path you could take, like what's another way that maybe you could kind of think about it, you can still get there, it might be a little bit harder, And maybe you don't get quite as far, but I think if it's, if you have more of that, again, like that willingness to like kind of get out of the muck and like figure it out, then like you'll get there, or at least you'll start making progress like in the right direction. And so I do feel like that's important to kind of have that sort of north star and also the belief that you can, you can make progress towards that.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I read an article in Fast Company magazine about optimism at work and it said that optimistic employees are like 103 % more inspired at work. And then they also, which is lovely, like you wanna be around people who are feeling inspired at work. Then they also said that you could hire for optimism, But then they didn't really explain how. So do you think that's a thing? And like, do you have any thoughts on that or have you had any experience hiring for optimism? I just think that's fascinating.

Sarah DeMark:
That's hard, right? Well, and it's funny that you ask that because like there's this tool that we use, like it's called like five dynamics. And it's, you know, it talks about like sort of where your energy is and whether you're explore, examine, excite or execute and you know, you kind of want to balance like on your team and which is great. But one of the things I just realized is my team that I just like kind of put in place for like leadership, they're all excites. I'm an excite.

Sarah DeMark:
And so like, I think I did it. I don't think I meant to do it, but like I think I'm like, and I know I'm supposed to have a balance. Like I know I'm not supposed to hire people that are attracted to those type of nervous that I just might have, but yeah, I've got a team of people that are excited. And I like that because I like the energy of it. I love the let's figure it out kind of like, you know, sort of aspects of that team culture. It's like incredibly supportive, and it's just, I don't know, it's a great dynamic. So I think I did over hire. For optimism.

Sarah DeMark:
Maybe I need like a healthy bit of skepticism in there. But yeah, like it's, so yeah, it's funny that you asked me that because I've just been reflecting on that over the last like week or so and I was like, oh, okay, like, hopefully this is…

Annalisa Holcombe:
Okay, how can you tell? Like, how can you tell if somebody's optimistic?

Sarah DeMark:
I feel like it's talking about the future in a way that they see as being achievable. And so I think it's like setting like a really compelling, like exciting vision, but like having a plan on how to get there and to make it right? So it's, I think it's one thing to be like, okay, like, I'm optimistic that this is going to turn out. It's like, okay, like you can, that's great too, but that seems very passive.

Sarah DeMark:
Like, I want people to have the vision, but at least the starting of a plan of how to like move in that direction. And so like, and so maybe that's a little bit of like, you know, well, I have this vision, but you know, somebody else, it's up to somebody else or like, I don't know what to do with it or, you know, that's never gonna happen. You know, so like, I feel like a lot of it is sort of matching that I hate the word can do, but I'm trying to think of another word for can do, but it's like matching that like we can figure this out kind of like energy with like a really compelling, exciting vision.

Annalisa Holcombe:
That's like the discussion of growth mindset. It feels like what you're talking about is like people who have a growth mindset are more internally wired also to be optimists. I think so. Yeah and it's fascinating because like and it's fascinating too Sarah because you started this talking about how what you're really into is self-improvement which is all growth mindset like this is you.

Sarah DeMark:
That's true. Yeah but I see it in others that aren't, right? Like my kid, like, not like she's definitely like a half a glass empty kind of fascinating that and it's like, it hurts, you know, it's like, and so you want to like, I think she's definitely kind of like shifting like a little bit more in that, like direction towards more like growth mindset. But I feel like if you are wired one way or the other, she was definitely wired in a fixed mindset last half full kind of way. And it was, it was hard, like it was hard.

Annalisa Holcombe:
That's really brave of you to share. And also, what can we learn from that in terms of here's someone who isn't optimistic naturally? Yeah, who is like one of the most important people in your life.

Sarah DeMark:
I know. So how how has that been like what are what's the experience of that for you? It's been really difficult in that like I see things that she doesn't see or that she doesn't want to see or that she just can't see and so it's a lot of like conversation like about that but it's hard like hearing this from your parents, right? Like your parents are always gonna tell you you're great and that you're really, you know, you're doing good things. But like, and so like she, yeah, I think she sort of dismisses it because she feels like that's just what every parent says to their kids.- At your job to say that to me.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Yeah, exactly.

Sarah DeMark:
But like, like I remember like she took like, I don't know, some standardized tests and like somewhere in K-12 world and she scored really high in math and she had a very low sort of like self-confidence like in math but she's always been really good in math and so I was like objectively you're good in math this isn't your parents telling you you're good at math like and so she was and but still like very like dismissive of it and so it's it's been like it's been interesting and it's been hard.

Sarah DeMark:
I don't know. It's hard when you have a kid that doesn't see how awesome you see that. Yeah, yeah. And it affects their ability for growth mindset. And even I was reading about optimism and that optimists exhibit more agency. Like on, like that's part of it too, right? Like I, it's what you're talking about. They'll say like, okay this path is not it's this there's a great big boulder in the way of this path so how am I going to get around it or over it or go on a different path yes but it's meaning that the goal isn't still there for me yeah exactly so they figure out their own ways to do it rather than the path that society might have set for them or something right right yeah like I don't know I was there's like when you work with people that are a little bit more like Eeyore.

Sarah DeMark:
It's like--- It's fun. It's hard. And it takes like for me, like it makes me sort of uncomfortable. And so like, I also feel like I have to put in more energy to try to get them like excited and having that agency and seeing the possibility. And so I do find it draining to kind of pull people along and maybe I shouldn't pull them along. I don't know but it's probably more for my own self than it is for them.

Annalisa Holcombe:
That's a good question though because I think that both of the things are true in terms of both optimism and pessimism being contagious on a team. Yeah and so I can see as a leader wanting to pull the pessimist forward into excitement about something.

Sarah DeMark:
Yeah, well, and you can feel, yeah, and there's a feel to it, right? There's like a heaviness to it. So yeah, again, like I try to get out of those situations as quickly as possible because I don't like it. Like it hurts my soul.

Annalisa Holcombe:
All right, so let's talk a little bit about I always mess up his name and now I can still I even look it up because every time I read books by Simon, I would say Simon Sinek in my head. So that's how his name is to me. And I think it's wrong. But you know how you do that if you read a name first, it's just stuck in your head. Your brain read it. Anyway, that guy has been doing a lot of research on optimism and positivity, and he says that positivity is blind, but optimism is based in reality. That positivity is telling ourselves and others around us that everything's good, even if it isn't, where optimism accepts the truth of the reality you're in, but looks forward to a brighter future.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So I think that's like that's kind of like I've been thinking about that too and I was kind of thinking Like if I had to like separate out and I think it's sort of similar I think positivity is like more how you feel like about a current situation and optimism is more like future focused and so… So yeah, I was trying to figure out like… How do you separate those out and I think it's more like you're optimistic about the future or the direction or something That's you know a little bit further ahead of you. Whereas positivity seems a little bit more like in the moment. So but I think that's really interesting that the Simon person. Yeah, how do you say his last name?

Sarah DeMark:
I was gonna say cynic. Annalisa Holcombe:
See, it's pretty close.

Sarah DeMark:
I don't know. Now I'm questioning myself. I’m gonna say that.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I kind of like that if his name is Sinek, it sounds like he's a cynic while we're talking about optimism. Yeah, that sounds a lot like the way that he talks about it. And it goes to the whole like shadow side of it in terms of When they don't I never I couldn't come across anything that said toxic optimism, but there sure are a lot of things about toxic positivity.

Sarah DeMark:
Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.

Sarah DeMark:
So maybe in that case, right? You can still be optimistic about like the outcome and the direction in the future but like maybe the toxic positivity is about not living in the reality of the current situation. And I think that that's kind of the challenge with being like overly optimistic or overly positive is dismissing like current reality or dismissing like potentially people that are having like they see things more negatively which could be more accurately. And so I definitely anything that there you can overdo it.

Sarah DeMark:
And I think, yeah, so that's like my guess in terms of why it's bad is that it's like the rose colored glasses and fine, fine, everything's fine. Well, like things are like on fire like behind you.

Annalisa Holcombe:
And so, yeah, that's fascinating. That just as you described, I was like, Oh, my gosh, we're living through watching that in our society right now with the Democratic Party and the presidential elections.

Sarah DeMark:
It's fine, it's fine.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Yeah, they're like, maybe that was toxic positivity where after the Biden debate, they're like, "No, it's okay, it's gonna be fine." Like this actual reality, people are like, "No, it's not, here's the reality you're in."

Sarah DeMark:
Yeah, you're like, "No, it's okay."

Annalisa Holcombe:
There's something better can be done. Like maybe that's really interesting.

Sarah DeMark:
Yeah. Watching it play out in real time, what that's going to be now my frame for toxic positivity would be Biden right after the debate. It wasn't so bad. Yeah, it was. George Clooney wrote a New York Times article about it. Yeah, that one was fascinating. And that's also like, I don't know, going back to the beginning cons, self-awareness, right? You have I hope that like, you know, the leaders of our countries have a little bit more self-awareness.

Sarah DeMark:
It's hard though. I mean, that's a really hard thing too that by the time you become in that, regardless of whether it's, of course, like the presidency or the head of a ticket for to become president, but even leaders of organizations, ultimately like senior leadership is such a small, rarefied place that it is hard, probably to be completely self aware, because you've got to be afraid to tell them how awesome you are all the time.

Sarah DeMark:
And it's hard to know what to do. You have to check the match. Right? That makes it a difficult place to sit and something that like it would be good for leaders to find like the people they can trust.

Annalisa Holcombe:
The cool thing about that is, and I'm going to reference her, is that in my PhD program, I had a friend in my PhD program named Sarah Frost, and her dissertation was on optimism at work. So it showed up in my Google results so shout out to Sarah Frost like well done and here's what she, I know right. Sarah's all about optimism. And I would love your thoughts on what she created like a measurement and scale about how to tell if you have optimism at work.

Annalisa Holcombe:
These are the things that she talked about. There are one, two, three, four aspects to it from her. And the first one is, I love it, is called Empowered Connection. And look how you store the connection, which is a cooperative interaction with others that promotes a sense of safety, confidence and competence that allows people at work to take risks. Does that align with you? So that's the first one.

Sarah DeMark:
I would say this almost sounds like the Maslow's hierarchy of like, like you feel like you have to have that as a pretty stable foundation for you to…

Annalisa Holcombe:
Have an optimistic team.

Sarah DeMark:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Annalisa Holcombe:
The second one is joyful engagement, which is a positive, hopeful, and fulfilling experiences that command your full presence in the activity.

Sarah DeMark:
Oh, I like that.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I like that too. I love, I just like, as I read this, and I mean, you know, full disclosure, Sarah, I've had a chance to work with you and members of your team, and that is them. I feel like they feel very empowered, they're all very connected to the work and each other. Yeah. And they're excited about it. And like, I've never seen so many people who are so like, who are fun in meetings, like I'm in meetings with them, and they put in little fun things in the chats, and they notice something about another person and they put it in like they're, it's.

Sarah DeMark:
We have a strong mean game.

Annalisa Holcombe:
They really do. Actually, that was one of the things we were joking about as being, you know, something we need to embed in our interview criteria is like, Hey, I just sent you this meme. How would you respond? Sarah DeMark: That's awesome.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Then it says, but I also really like by the way, like that idea of your full presence in the activity.

Sarah DeMark:
Yeah, like for me that's so meaningful that like to have people who are so excited about it and I would think that in the past my team has told me that I clearly hired for mission, but I think underneath it. I was trying to get to that like are you going to be fully here like does this new feel it. But that's important though right and then I think that that's, it's hard to have the, the full like presence. It’s… It practices optimistic leadership by seeing what's good and amplifying it for both in themselves and in others in their workplace.

Annalisa Holcombe:
That's right. Yeah, I agree you do that. And then it says organizational optimism infuses the culture of the workplace. Optimism is at the center and employees are encouraged to see, focus, and feel the good in themselves and in others and in their work, regardless of the circumstances. Even if you fail, you get to see like, you did good here and here and here, and the effort is worth celebrating or whatever.

Sarah DeMark:
We learned this, even though it didn't kind of go as we thought, we still learned a lot. And so, yeah, I like that. Good job, Sarah Frost. Annalosa Holcombe: Right? She did a great job at this. So then my next question given that we were talking about Sarah and that she did this work in her PhD program and it seems to resonate, do you think you can learn optimism?

Sarah DeMark:
I'll say yes but like I think the hard thing would be like I'd say yes you can um and I do think that some of it's like I mean it's a mindset but but there's also a skill, like to your point, right? You were just listing out specific criteria of things that you can do to kind of foster that. And so I do think it's something that can be like learned. I think like the challenge though, is that it's like, if it doesn't feel authentic, like it's not gonna work.

Sarah DeMark:
And so, so… Yeah, I think that would be like, you have to find it in yourself. I think to be able to kind of show up and lead that within others, if it doesn't feel authentic and feels sort of fake, like, I don't think that's gonna go so well. And I don't think the team is gonna follow along.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I totally agree with that. And haven't you been president some things where like you've seen team members who who are Eeyore’ing it, but they're just performative in their optimism?

Sarah DeMark:
Yes, yeah, yes. But then in the exact way after meetings and saying like, "Oh my gosh, can you believe we're having to do this?" And blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, so I think…

Annalisa Holcombe:
How do you handle something like that as a leader of an organization? Like what is, what's an opportunity to do something about that when that's happening? I think a lot of it is like, I mean, because usually I'll say the Eeyores, like, I mean, again, right? I mean, it's not always like the sunshine and rainbows, right?

Sarah DeMark:
And so there's usually some really important truths, I think, to like what their concerns are, what their beliefs are, like, I mean, it's not, you know, totally irrational. And so I think it's again, kind of, maybe it's that separation of like positivity and optimism, right? It's like, yeah, okay, like, this is a sucky situation. But like, how do we make it better? How do we move it forward?

Sarah DeMark:
And so, like, I think in those cases, it's like, acknowledging, right? Because you don't want like, their concerns to feel like they're dismissed, or those they're not going to look at really anything else that you are going to say to them. And so I think it's, it's the acknowledging of like their feelings and their perspective and there's probably again like some really true things there but then it's kind of like okay yes like here it is like how do we how do we move it forward and so like yeah so I think it's the acknowledgement um so that way at least they're feeling heard um but sometimes people aren't ready for it.

Sarah DeMark:
Like, I'll like, I'll say like, and she would like, she, well, she, I won't tell her that I did this podcast, but like, my mom, like, I remember like, when my like, parents, like, they went through a divorce, and it was when I was in my 30s, which is weird to kind of have your parents do that after they had been married for 30 years, and like being a adult child and things like that. And like, I just remember my mom just being really stuck in it.

Sarah DeMark:
And it was like, it was really hard 'cause it was like, yeah, this sucks, but like what are we gonna do about it? Like how are we gonna like move forward? And sometimes people aren't ready for it either. And so I think I learned a lot about like that balance of like nudging things forward, but still validating that, you know, people feel pretty crappy about the current situation. But I've had a hard time. Personally, just like letting it sit in the muck and not trying to plan on how to move forward.

Annalisa Holcombe:
But I appreciate you sharing that because it's brave. And also, I think it will resonate with so many of us that moment. And sometimes you do need to sit in the mess and muck of it and feel bad for a little bit.

Sarah DeMark:
I don't know if you remember this, because I think you were in the room, but I just remember when we were talking about like all of the like cultural belief stuff that, you know, and, like, I remember there was this, like, we were talking about when people start to feel negative about stuff and Marty made this comment and I love it.

Sarah DeMark:
It's like, you can drive through pity city, but you can't stay there. And so I was like, I love that. It's like, I love that because we all have to recognize, right, that like, things do suck, you know? And that you have to like…

Annalisa Holcombe:
Would it take a little detour over here and seep into it?

Sarah DeMark:
Yeah. But you have to keep going. You can't park, you can't camp there, you gotta keep going. And so I think it's that ability to kind of acknowledge it, but still like, get out of it.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I had a friend once, it's very similar. He came and spoke at something and he had like his top 10 rules of life that he was counting down and one of them, I can't remember all of his top 10 rules. But he stayed with me because I needed to hear it and he said one of his rules was embrace the suck. Yeah, he's like, yeah, every single really great thing, the best relationship of your life, the best job of your life, the best house of your life, like it's gonna also have something that really sucks. Everything does. So like embrace the suck and know like, yep, oh, here it is. This is how it sucks.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So I have the part that's great. And maybe that maybe you appreciate the greatness more when you realize like, oh, you know, it could be this all the time. Yeah. I'm going to appreciate, you know, these like few things that are great, because at least it's not crap all the time.

Sarah DeMark:
I love that. How do you help people, or how do you even approach it yourself? Because when I was thinking about optimism in this podcast, we're at an interesting time right now for all of us, right? Like, I have this story of like, it's post COVID and then I joke, like, is it ever really post COVID? Because…

Sarah DeMark:
No, it's going around again.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Yeah, right now I have a friend that's really sick right now. And so we have that. And then we have, you know, inflation and we have, you know, the, we have wars that are, and we see terrible things and we have polarization and we have these things are all really hard. Yeah, hard to be optimistic. What do you have advice for people in terms of like society? Like how are you optimistic about what the world is like for your daughter when she's your age or what like are you having those conversations? What does that mean for you?

Sarah DeMark:
Well so okay so this is really interesting because like one and I can't I think it's Hans something or other um but uh wrote this book called Factfulness um and it was like it was fascinating, right? It was really taking a lot of like big like global trends and showing how like, yeah, okay. Like, yes, there's some poverty, not to minimize that.

Sarah DeMark:
That's not a terrible way I said it, but like it's infinitely better than what it used to be. Yes, like there is, you know, quite like, like it took like all of these like different like aspects of like violence and girls education and poverty and hunger and like even like endangered species and like all of these different things and it's like yes like it's still there but like look at the trajectory right it is and like it was actually fascinating because it gave like a multiple choice test like what do you think right and so you would you you would answer, and you're always going to answer that it's worse than it actually is. Which is a great book. It's super eye-opening.

Sarah DeMark:
There's actually a little quiz that you can take online if you don't want to read the whole book. But it's fascinating. But honestly, I don't want it to sound like I've got my head in the sand and I don't want to hear anything negative. Like, I try not to watch a lot of news, honestly. I feel like it's always negative. It's always gonna skew negative. Like that's how people get sucked into it. And so I have a couple of news feeds that I get like every day. Like I scroll through them. So that way I have like a general idea of what's going on. I don't click deeper into them because like…

Annalisa Holcombe:
It'll hurt.

Sarah DeMark:
Yeah, and so like so I feel like I'm like, you know informed enough to know what's going on in the world But like I can't get like sucked into all like the negative like news cycle It's it's never ending. And so I do try to like really limit How much I dig into the news?

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that I think it might be something we all have to learn and and think about when we find our social media algorithms are skewing negative. Like there's something you need to take a break or something.

Sarah DeMark:
Well, I'm only on Instagram. That's the only social thing that I follow. And it's basically just like videos about food and like funny dogs. So like that's, so I don't even think I get… Annalisa Holcombe:
Like a joyful place for you.

Sarah DeMark:
Yeah, I don't even think I get news like in my social media account 'cause they're like, yeah, just show our videos of dogs like that which is good.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that I have a my last question about optimism is do you think it's important to feel optimistic about yourself yeah talk to me about how you do that like what is what is and what can you share with our listeners about how they can feel optimistic about themselves.

Sarah DeMark:
I mean, I think a lot of it's perspective, right? And that's like, I don't know. This is probably not like the best thing, but you're like, it could always be worse, right? Like it can always be worse. And so like anytime like there's stuff that's like, you know, going like, it's like, okay, yeah, this sucks, but it could be worse, right? And so I think a lot of it is just being realistic that maybe it's not where you hope to be or, you know, what's going on, but like, it could be worse, right?

Sarah DeMark:
And so, like, it's like, I was just listening. I don't remember what podcast it was. But I was just listening to this podcast and it was like talking about people being frustrated that they put on all of this weight during the pandemic. It's like, yeah, that might suck, but your body got used through the pandemic, right? So like, be grateful for that. And so…

Sarah DeMark:
So, like, I think there's just like things like that that you kind of have to like remind yourself to like put into perspective that, um, like, we're here gratitude, there's some gratitude. Yeah. And we're here and that, and that's a good thing. And so maybe it's not where we want to be, um, but we're here and that's like a pretty awesome first step. And so I think, yeah, so I would think it's just like that balance of like being realistic but also being hopeful about like the future and so maybe like I am not going to be a champion tennis player but I can get better at my backhand right maybe I am feels good yes right.

Sarah DeMark:
And it seems like doable right it's like something small feels big but it's something like I can focus on or Like I am crappy with confrontation and I will try to avoid it like the plague, but like I can I also know that if I do these steps, then I can address it when it's important, right? And so I think that there's and it's not like I and I don't want to be like confrontational all the time and be like, yeah, I'm winning, right?

Sarah DeMark:
It's like, but it's like, Do you show up like when you really need it, when it really matters, right? Like not every day, like you can eat garbage, like you're in there, right? But like when it really matters, are you eating like the things, that was a dumb example, but like are you doing the things that you should be doing when like when it really matters? And so, because nobody's perfect.

Sarah DeMark:
And so I think it's also just being realistic and giving yourself some you know, thinking about things in relative terms. Yeah, it's not perfect. No, that's really good because it helps me think about that too. The idea of being optimistic about yourself is like, it's by taking the similar long view. Yeah. Like that you're giving to other things that you might be optimistic about. Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah DeMark:
Yeah and like it's pick one small thing just like pick one small thing that you can like that's important to you that you can make small steps you know in terms of improvements and so I think it's and then and then write your own factfulness book about yourself. It's a multiple choice test.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Exactly that's amazing. All right so tell me, as we think about optimism, I'm wondering for you, does optimism have anything to do with any mentors that you've had in your life? Because you know I'm going to ask you the question about, as you know, I believe in mentorship and I actually believe in it in terms of people may not even know that they're your mentor and that's also beautiful. And so I love to give time to my guests to honor somebody in something like who's been a mentor to them. So I'm curious about whether or not whoever you're going to talk about has any kind of optimism in them as well.

Sarah DeMark:
All right, so this was gosh, I would say maybe 15 years ago. I was working at a large IT company. Not a great work culture, but IT company paid very well. And so, like, I remember talking to his, his name is Ted Ryan. He is like amazing. He has a bench with his name on it, like in Central Park, because he's amazing. He was like he taught ethics at Duke like I mean like it's like he had to be a pretty good person to be like teaching ethics I think and so like just a really just genuinely good human and like I remember kind of talking to him.

Sarah DeMark:
Because I had this other opportunity um that was coming up and it was like do you choose a job that like pays you well but just like is killing your soul or do you or do you take a job that's gonna pay you less but is gonna provide more of that culture that's important to you? And so obviously I made the decision to leave and which was amazing, but a lot of it was, like again, like knowing that I can't be my best self in a that's not going to support it.

Sarah DeMark:
And so that I think was like, and kind of talking through that with him. And then the other piece to that was like, my daughter was really young, like at the time, like maybe probably not quite kindergarten. And I just remember thinking like, what would I want her to do? Like, right? And like, what kind of role model do I want to be for her? Like, do I want to be like the be the individual that's miserable 40 plus hours a week, but is bringing home a good paycheck, or do I wanna be the person that is still getting paid well, but is doing something that is meaningful and important with a group of people that sort of share that passion.

Sarah DeMark:
And so if you say it out loud, right, at least to me, it feels like a little bit of a no-brainer, but really kind of having that conversation about like understanding like what was most important to me, like what how do I want to show up for my daughter, what would I want her to do, like what how do I want her to see me in making those choices.

Sarah DeMark:
And so like I don't know like that's probably like one of the first times that like I was really able to kind of talk through what I thought was a very difficult conversation with somebody that you know wasn't like my dad or like even though my dad is awesome and like you know also like a great mentor but it was just like and to have him like care about me and my decision and my well-being and like I mean it was yeah I loved the the genuineness of the connection and that, you know, he was able to help me see what was important to me and was just amazingly supportive about it.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that so much. And in some ways, the way that you talk about it, your Ted Ryan was your mentor, who showed up for you in a really important way. And also, your daughter was your mentor, and she didn't even know it by being like, like such an important part of your decision-making strategy. And wanting to honor her in your decision.

Sarah DeMark:
And I want to, I want her to, I mean, everybody wants, actually, this is really interesting. I heard something that's like, you know, everybody wants their kid to be happy, right? But like what I heard, like from, I don't know, I want to say it was a commencement speaker somewhere. And I was like, that's amazing. Like, show you want your kids to be happy. But what you really want is for them to be resilient. And I was like, that is brilliant, because you're not going to be happy all the time, right?

Sarah DeMark:
There is going to be the suck, the crap, the muck, right there. But like what you want is for them to be like resilient. And I think again, like that's, that's kind of that optimistic, hopeful, you know, kind of space to say like, okay, yeah, like, I'm not happy right now, but I'm often as sick that I can pull myself in a positive direction or I have hope that this is going to work out in the end. And so I loved, I don't know, I just thought that was brilliant. And so true, I do want resilience for my kid.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So that's beautiful. It's so beautiful that I don't even know why it started to give me weepiness because I was thinking, it's simple and profound and often those most profound things are like, oh, yeah. Yeah, that's the thing That's amazing. Thank you so much like this is I think where I want to stop because I think that's like the thing we want to say… Yeah.

Sarah DeMark:
Yeah, that was your mic drop moment.

Annalisa Holcombe:
It was, especially about all of it, like that you brought it back to optimism in the end too about that those moments. And so, um, goodness, I'm so grateful to you. And I feel like gratitude plays a big piece in being able to be optimistic too. Um, I am so grateful that you're willing to do this with me. I can't have a chance to chit chat with you because you teach me things all the time. And now I'm hopeful that you're teaching things through this podcast to people who haven't heard you before.

Sarah DeMark:
Hi to Annalisa's mom. Annalisa Holcombe: And the good news is there's a whole bunch of people listening. And our listenership is growing and growing. I just did a media kit for the podcast to show that we have over 5,000.

Sarah DeMark:
Awesome.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Yay, woohoo! And a lot of followers, so we're getting there. Thank you for everything. I appreciate it so much.

Sarah DeMark:
Thank you for inviting me. This was fun.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Huge thanks to my friend, Sarah DeMark. Her focus on optimism, learning, and ultimately hope is something that I absolutely needed to hear right now. Her optimism bias is inspiring. You can learn more by following her on LinkedIn. You can even see more about her work and ideas at so many places. I suggest you just start by googling her name and you'll find interesting articles with the American Council on Education, Holland IQ and more. It's really inspiring.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Next time we will close out our changemaker season with our guest Dale Whitaker. Dr. Dale Whitaker is a former university professor, provost, and president, and he's currently advisory and principal officer of US Education Research and Development for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. We will end our season with him focusing on intention. You won't want to miss it.