Transcript
Annalisa Holcombe:
Kyle, I'm so excited to talk to you today and I'm really grateful that you agreed to be on this podcast with me.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Of course. Thank you, Annalisa. I'm delighted to be here.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I'm excited because the idea of having a podcast about making change and people who are change makers for a living felt really appropriate and natural for me in this phase of my life. And I'm interested in what you think about the fact that I said, "Hey, I'm doing a podcast about changemakers. Would you want to be on it?"

Kyle Vander Meulen:
I generally don’t think of myself as a change maker. So it's interesting, but then I'm thinking about the clients that I work with and the work that I am privileged, frankly, to be able to do with them. And it is a lot of change that we're looking for.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
So there's a client that I work with that runs a school in Haiti. And if you know anything about Haiti right now, it's in a difficult position. they're changemakers by building leaders for tomorrow, by working with young students, young children to get them ethical values of leadership so that they know how to kind of grow and run in a country. That's a changemaker. Another changemaker I'm working with right now is tackling the issue of homelessness and homelessness prevention. So when I think about it, I actually do work with a lot of organizations that are changemakers and I get to partner with them in the work they're doing and I love that.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that too because even if you're like the person that's not in Haiti working with the students from your position, you get to influence that work. So you're the changemaker, too.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah, yeah, it's joint which is fun. Awesome. Well I certainly experienced that working with you in the past that it's really fun to work with you to draft the perfect case for support or proposal and really understanding ultimately what the impact is that you're trying to accomplish.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Yeah. So let's start with my big question that I ask everyone If you don't talk about work and you think about who you are as a human being, what is it that you're most proud of about yourself?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah, I love that question, Annalisa, and I think it's a great opportunity to remember that we have lives outside of work and interest and things that we're trying to accomplish in our own lives. So the thing that immediately came to mind is that I have been very intentional about building relationships with my nieces and nephews.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
So I don't have any kids of my own, but I have five fantastic nephews and two great nieces. And when the oldest was in eighth grade, I made a decision to take them on a special trip that whenever a niece or nephew got to eighth grade, I would take them on a special trip or outing to kind of get to know them better. It's a great time to do it when they're kind of just on the cusp of becoming a high schooler and a teenager, where there's still some kind of fun of the childhood in them, but they're starting to think about kind of bigger things about who they want to be in the in the world.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
So I just actually wrapped up my last a couple of weeks ago in Seattle with my youngest nephew. Yeah, so now I need to think of a new kind of routine or a new special thing to do with them, but it's been wonderful to me to get to know them and to have those individual relationships with each one. And I'm very proud of the fact that I've been able to do that. -

Annalisa Holcombe:
Oh my gosh, I love that so much. And it's funny that, So just you saying it almost makes me weepy. So I think I might just be getting to an age where I just let myself feel the feels when they come. And I think it's appropriate. And I get to be as human as I wanna be. And the idea for me of like how beautiful that is for those kids to have an adult person who loves them like that and who cares about them will be something that makes a huge difference in their lives. And that is the way that we change the world for the better is by seeing people and paying attention to them and making them feel and loved and worthy. And you're doing that.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah. I'm doing it.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Well done. I'm so proud of that for you. So that's amazing.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Thank you. Yeah.

Annalisa Holcombe:
And I'm really interested then. So let's talk about we always have the theme of our episode and so let's let's dig into that theme of integrity which I appreciate you being willing to speak about. I think integrity is so important. And it isn't something that we talk about every day, but maybe we should.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah, yeah.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So I was reading about like, what is the definition of integrity? And in lots of places, it's a lot of the act of behaving honorably, even when nobody's watching. The fact that we have to have that suffix at the end of that sentence of, even when nobody's watching is fascinating. So what does integrity mean to you?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah, I think in the kind of simplest form, it really is about acting in accord with ethical principles in all areas of your life. So I think a couple of kind of core components of that. One is the acting part, right? Integrity is not knowledge, it's not wisdom, it really is something that you live out. And you live it in accord with moral values.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
The difference that I see between like integrity and something like authenticity, which are similar, but a little bit different. I see integrity as these are moral values that we all share, right, honesty, respect, gratitude, charity, these are the types of things we don't get to define them, right, but we as as people of integrity, try to live in accord with them.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Authenticity is kind of your own or values who you want to be as an individual that define you as a person, but integrity I really see as those ethical values, those moral values that we have kind of in common and you don't get to define them, but you try to live in accordance with them.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So how do you do that? How are you living in accordance with those moral values and how do you go about a day in integrity.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah, well, I think it, first of all, you do have to understand yourself, your kind of strengths and weaknesses, your natural aptitudes, kind of the direction that you normally would take in life. And it can be really helpful, and this is where other people are really important because you need to see yourself as other people see you, or you need to understand kind of how you fit in within a community.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
And family, close friendships, close colleagues can all be very important in giving you that type of feedback, right? So that you might think of yourself as someone who is always honest, but then, you know, a friend of yours might say, hey, you know, when it was just us and we were talking about something in life, you said it this way. But then when another friend came over, you gave a entirely different response to that, right?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
So you want people to kind of call you out. You want people who are going to hold you accountable to your highest values, your highest ideals, and to be those types of people that can say, hey, you know, you messed up here, because you might not always realize it yourself. And so it's important to know yourself and kind of the way and the places that you need to work on and then to surround yourself with people who are going to keep you accountable in building that integrity.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Okay, so Kyle, you were brave enough to bring that up, so now I'm going to ask you yourself. So what are the things that you know or have had to work on in order to be in your integrity, and who are the people in your life who are those those people who are willing to have that conversation with you?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah. So I think honesty is a value that is incredibly important. And we just need it in all areas of our life and in work life, in particular. And it has been a struggle for me to have honest conversations sometimes with people when something isn't going right. Maybe it's a client that the project for whatever reason just isn't working the way that we had thought it would be. It could be that there's a problem on there and that I have to address or a colleague where, you know, we had a meeting and it just, we weren't on the same page, right? My natural instinct is to be kind of the peacemaker, right, not to rock the boat, not to bring up kind of things that are going to upset someone.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
And so I've really had to work on, and there's a great book called Crucial Conversations that has personally helped me a lot in how to have these conversations respectfully making sure that the honesty is coming through but in a way that the other individual is going to hear. So that's been one area that I've really, in the past couple of years in particular, grown in and recognize that I needed to grow in.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
The people that have been very hopeful in many ways with that. So colleagues here at Amphil, a new colleague, are working together as new named John LaBarbara, who's been just so fantastic at taking time to sit with me and have these types of conversations, even practice sometimes crucial conversations that I need to have. And then one of my sisters is just a fantastic listener. You know, one of those people that, well, first of all, she knows me. She's known me all my life. So she knows kind of where I go and what my instincts are and can kind of push and challenge me in ways that are appropriate and but as she listens to and she can say, "Okay, I did not hear what I needed to hear with that." Or I heard something, but I think what you're actually trying to say is this, right? And so she's been incredibly helpful in having that honest feedback and in working with me and encouraging me to be able to have more of those crucial conversations.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So wild to me because I think in every conversation I've had so far this season, the idea of listening and the importance of listening, regardless of what the subject matter was that we were talking about, has come up. It's been part of like some central tenet of what we're talking about. So it's fascinating to me that the help like somebody actually listening to you has been helpful in helping you live in your integrity.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Well, and what's interesting, this is just something the way that this person put it was new to me. There's four types of communications. So there's reading, there's writing, there's speaking, and there's listening. We learn to read, we're taught how to read, we're taught how to write, We're taught how to speak, we go to speech classes and have no one teaches us how to listen, right?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
So it's not surprising that so many elements of communication can break down because we're not listening right or someone isn't listening to us, right? So it's something that we actually have to be active at and have to learn how to do well.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So talk to me about what specifically do you look for and has it mattered to you to have an employer, whether it is a specific, and maybe it's both. I'm really interested in like a direct leader who you believe has integrity or an organization that you work for that you believe has integrity, and how have you spotted that or learned to align yourself with that in your life?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah, there's a lot of, I mean, I really have been fortunate to work with fantastic organizations, nonprofits over the past 10 years here at Amphil that are organizations of integrity. How do I spot that? How do I find it? I think it's where it does go back a little bit to that when no one's looking element. And by that, I mean, you know, almost every organization now is going to have a great mission and vision and values statement.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
And those are important. I don't want to belittle them in any way. And the process of actually writing them down and thinking about them is really important. But when you get on a Zoom call with the leader. When you look at the work that they're actually producing and you compare it side by side with the mission statement and the vision statement and the values and everything, do they line up, right? That's what I'm kind of looking for.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
This is especially important to me. We do a lot of strategic planning with our clients. So this is a wonderful way that we really work side by side with an organization. We get to know the heart of the organization. We interview board members and leaders and donors and kind of all sorts of people that are associated with it. It's a great opportunity to see how is this organization at treating people, right? When you talk to, especially like a development officer, maybe they're not the number one at the organization, but they're responsible for executing the mission in some way.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Does the leader have their back? Is the leader clear about what that person's role is? Do they feel supported in that role, right? So those are the types of things that I'm looking for. And it's actually pretty easy to find out whether or not an organization is living out that integrity pretty quickly on when you have those conversations.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Do you get a lot of eyes rolled when you talk about the mission or do you get people their faces light up? They want to talk more. You have to cut them off because they're so excited about the work that they're doing. So that's kind of what I'm looking for when I'm trying to see if an organization is really one that is living with integrity. I mean, I feel like that's really important.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I was just having a conversation with, well, I had a conversation with my prior leader who was, who talked to me about how I embodied mission so much. And in some ways, I think that comes with the fundraising profession. Like as I was leaving my past employer, one of my employees said to me, I can, I could tell in my interview process that I was not going to be hired unless I understood and believed in the mission. I could tell that it was, it had to be actually in me from my conversations with you as the leader. And that there was truth to that.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So it's interesting to me, especially in the, like this particular industry of fundraising and grant making and really being in the in the world of making difference and positive change in the world, how mission and integrity are so intertwined. Because it's really the heart that you are living out with integrity. The mission is like the heart of the values that you're trying the ideals that you're trying to live up to when you want to lead a life of integrity.

Annalisa Holcombe:
When you talked about like when you're talking with clients have you had any situations in your career in which you could tell that the integrity wasn't there or like the the fundraisers weren't supported or um there was a disconnect between the the what the organization said and did, which is a lot of what integrity is, right? Like actually doing what you say. Have you encountered that and what happened?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah, we've definitely encountered that. I've definitely encountered that in different situations. It's a difficult thing to see, especially because so most people that go into nonprofits are doing it because they care about the mission. And one of the hardest things is to see someone go into a career and get so excited about working at an organization like the employee that you were talking about, and then to get in and find out that it's a little bit of a facade or that people are not living up with integrity because they're just not embodying. They don't care about the mission the way that the individual thought, right?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
So, you know, in some cases, that's a conversation we have, like with a board, for example, if like the CEO is, is not leading with integrity, the board might need to be made aware of that. And those are difficult. But that's also like our responsibility as consultants, we're invited to, to actually analyze and to make recommendations about the organization.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
The other thing that I really do try to do is affirm the individual in their own choices and the work that they're doing, right? So that's something that I have seen embodied in my own life, just people who are encouragers, cheerleaders, you know, the people that really support me, support other people. And that is so important, especially in fundraising, with a small organization, for example, you might be the only one doing fundraising there. And it's tough work, right?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
So as a consultant, I can kind of come alongside that person and just encourage them and try to support what the work that they are doing and give them vision, right? So maybe their particular boss is someone that doesn't lead with integrity, but the work is still important, right? The mission is still important. So if we can kind of realign that and give them their own vision for why it's important for them to stay there, to stay in the work, I try to do that as well. And then it's also just kind of brokering these conversations.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Some is so much of distrust so much of kind of breakdowns in communication can be cleared up when you just bring people together and you take a deep breath and you go in and you think, how can I better understand the person that I'm speaking with and what I disagree with, right? So really going in, trying to…

Kyle Vander Meulen:
And instead of just trying to push your own view on that, before really recognizing what the individual's view is that you're trying to respond to.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Kyle, this is so good because I'm having so many thoughts. And it occurred to me as you were talking, well, one thing I wanna say is you did that for me. So thank you. You would, in conversations with me when we've worked together in the past, you have said to me those lovely things and it mattered and it worked. So keep doing that. Because when you'd say to me like, that is remarkable. I'd be like, oh, thank you, Kyle. And there's something about someone who's worked with lots of organizations saying to you, what you're doing is remarkable that makes you keep doing it. So keep that up for all your clients. Make sure it's true. But it's a, or find the thing that's true about them because it really does help people to keep going. Annalisa Holcombe: So thank you. Second, it made me think when you were talking about two stories I have, and I'd love your feedback on them. So one is I, in my early higher ed career phase I worked as an advisor to a president and in that role I often had direct access to his emails and or I was cc'd on his response to this vice president or this vice president and sometimes the vice presidents were arguing with each other and I was able to see my leader say something to them when they were both together, say something when all of us were together at the senior leader team, and say the exact same thing to them individually in email when nobody else was listening, but like stayed on the message and whether it was a message or whether he really believed it, sure made me feel like he really believed it, and it made me trust in his judgment, even on things I didn't agree with him with, because I felt more comfortable that he was never ever playing anybody that works against each other, or anyway, it was a lovely thing to see this moment when the leader really did behave the same way when nobody was watching.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah, yeah, I love that example that's great. Annalisa Holcombe: And then it reminds me of this other story I'm interested in your thoughts on how personal values align with integrity at work. So it made me think this I had this speaker in one of my courses I taught where an outside person came in and spoke about a time that they left their employer because the employer made a decision, the organization, not one person may be the leader, right? But the organization decided to do something that did not align with the values of this individual.

Annalisa Holcombe:
And he chose to leave the job, even though it was a lucrative and wonderful job and he didn't have another plan. I think that is really brave. And then it led me to think that, You know when we're talking about how people leave bosses, not organizations, like you don't leave a job, you leave a boss or I wonder now if there is some kind of tie into the idea of personal values, personal integrity and organizational values and organizational integrity. So you can tell that I'm just thinking about that as you were talking so what are your thoughts?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
I think there's a connection there, Annalisa, and I think what jumps to mind is going back to this idea of needing to know yourself and know kind of what your values are. And then certainly the example you mentioned of the employee interviewing with you and really needing to understand the mission. So in an ideal world, right?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Your personal values, the company that you work with would be an opportunity for you to live out your personal values. And depending on the value and the individual, like how much kind of latitude you give to that is where the rubber meets the road, as they say, right? Like, how much can you kind of accept? I think first and foremost, you want to be true to what those values are for yourself.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
And maybe that's a conversation that you have with a leader in the organization about the decision that was made. And are there opportunities for you to express that you were unhappy with the decision or not unhappy, but that it went against your values? But does it compromise your values as a whole, right? Is this the type of thing that would then necessitate that you might need to leave?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
In some cases, that might be the case. But I would say that it's important for individuals to voice those personal values to their employer so that they understand, because you might not be the only one, right? It might be a decision that's affecting a lot of people, but more people are concerned about just understandably keeping their job and don't wanna rock the boat or whatnot.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
But if you see yourself as a leader or even if you don't see yourself as a leader, but just as someone that wants to live with integrity, I think it would be important for you to raise that, to tell it to your supervisor, to someone in the company, so that at least they understand that this is not a decision has unanimous support, right? And that it might actually conflict with some of the values of the people that are in your your organization.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
That would be brave and you'd have to be really comfortable with your own just with yourself. And I think that when you talked about that need to know yourself boy is that central. Like you first need to know yourself before you can even have any of those conversations. or maybe you learned something about yourself and what your values are when something is a gut check to you at work.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Like you might not even know and then something happens and it causes you to think, wait a second, that isn't right. Something feels wrong about that. That's a great opportunity to explore why, you know, what principle is this kind of violating within me, where is there a problem here? And to really ask those questions and kind of tease that out.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I think that works for me in so many ways. I have this really interesting way of communicating with myself, where I get curious with myself, where like, if there is a job of task that I am procrastinating, I wonder why. like I actually say to myself like what it what is it about this that is making me not do it? And often it has to do with that often it there is something underneath the main task that it's either a communication barrier or some kind of a values laden like this didn't feel right and it's usually something that I have to address either with myself or with a colleague that is preventing me from just being all in, you know?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
I love that, Annalisa. I think curiosity is undervalued as a value in human life because so many times the way that we self-talk or think about ourselves is either like shame or guilt or something along those lines, curiosity takes that away. It's so like, Why? That's interesting. Why am I doing that? Why am I avoiding this assignment? There's something there that I need to figure out. It takes a lot of the pressure off and allows you that vision to ask questions that are going to get to wherever the conflict is or whatever the kind of root causes that might be holding you back from something.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I think that's right. And I think it's probably I'm just going to be honest and vulnerable here and say that I think it's been something that I've struggled with. When I've worked in education, which I have for decades and decades, if I'm working with people who don't have an innate sense of curiosity, who don't say to me, huh, why did you do that? But act in more of a command and control way. I am incredibly frustrated.

Annalisa Holcombe:
And I think that's why, because I've made assumptions which we know why you shouldn't make assumptions but I've probably made some assumptions about curiosity being inherent in the learning culture if it's supposed to officially be a learning culture. So tell me about when have you been in yourself in a work environment in which you weren't sitting in your own integrity, and what did you do if so?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah, I've never been in a situation where I had a conflict with like the organization. In previous positions, you know, what comes to mind is I did have a boss one time, and this happens in nonprofits, right? They get so driven to the mission that sometimes they can lose sight of other people or just see people as means to an end, right? Or justify like going back to the president and vice president example, because that's kind of similar to what I'm thinking of, where what was said to one person was different from what was said to another person. But I think in this individual's mind, it was okay because the mission of the project was so important that he felt that he needed to kind of manipulate people in order to get to the end goal.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
That's just, it's a tough position to be in. It's a tough position to see. So what I tried to do in that situation is maintain my integrity as much as possible, right? It's very easy to get sucked in especially if there's kind of like a culture or environment where that type of manipulation is not only allowed but kind of expected right where if you don't do that there's a question of well you don't care about the work then right no no so so I really tried to maintain my own sense of integrity and the work that I was doing to be honest, to be responsible, all of those types of things. It does wear you down, right?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
And so you want to find opportunities where you can voice concern. And again, in a respectful way, where you say, I don't agree with that. I think that we need to approach this person differently or this situation differently. That's really hard to do.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
And I had some burnout, I think, kind of because of it. But at the end of the day, you know, I left feeling like I didn't make compromises on my values or integrity. And so it was a difficult situation. I learned better communication techniques. And now I'm able to put those in practice and in other areas, you know, the other thing I would say is that we're all human and I starting earlier in the conversation about where I've struggled with those kind of crucial conversations.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
So the other thing that you can do to be someone that lives with integrity is that when you fall short, you apologize, right, you make the situation right, you get whatever it needs to get done, so that you can get back on track, but you don't ignore it. You don't hide it. You take it on, you say, "Hey, I messed up. Let's talk about it." And every time where I've done that, it's always worked out better. Everyone's been understanding and like, "I can see why this would have happened. Let's get back on track and move forward, water under the bridge." That type of a thing.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that, owning it, like saying yes, I think that's an important aspect of of integrity that we don't give enough language to or honor enough because saying I messed up is is a really important part of integrity. And the benefit of it also is that it reminds us all that we're human. Right.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah, integrity is not perfection. This is the other thing, like it's a lifelong journey, you know, there's, you're always gonna be able to improve your gratitude for other people. You're always gonna be able to improve in charity to one another, right? So give yourself a little grace, ask for forgiveness where you need it, forgive others and just keep, every morning is a new opportunity to get back at it.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Awesome, I love that so much. I do wanna talk a little bit about though, the role of integrity specifically, this is like kind of inside baseball talk, but the role of integrity in grant writing and then later in grant management, because I feel like there's something really important there that is more significant maybe, maybe it's not more significant, but at least it's more measured in when you're writing a grant.

Annalisa Holcombe:
And I'm interested in how you think about that, because as I work on putting grants together, sometimes I've learned over time that something that I thought we could do as a grant, we actually couldn't, because if we were living in our integrity, we knew that we were not ready for that, or we couldn't actually do what we said we were going to do, so we probably shouldn't take that money. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah, I think you hit right on it, Annalisa, which is to say that you might not think that grant writing is a place where you can see a lot of integrity, but when you really think about it, you are in a sense putting a commitment in front of a potential funder and saying that if you award us these funds, we are committed to this particular project. So there's massive amounts of integrity that go into this because you want to be honest about the project.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
You want to be prudent about the problem that the project is trying to address. Is this program that you're pitching actually going to solve the problem, move the needle in some way, you've got to be honest about that. You've got to be honest about the importance of the program and the project. Are you able to manage the funds?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
You might be like a $2 million organization, you get a $5 million grant, you don't even know what to do with it. So you really do want to go into the grant writing with integrity and honesty. And most funders are going to appreciate that, right? They want to know that they're giving the right amount for the right project and that it's going to benefit your organization in the right way.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
And the other thing is you are going to be accountable for this, right? You need to write the grant report at the end of the day, and so it's not just a place to dream big. You really want to be reasonable with what you're putting out there, because you're going to be called to account for it down the road.

Annalisa Holcombe:
You talk about what... I mean, I've personally experienced this, so can you talk to me about how you've experienced this in terms of writing a grant, believing you could do it and then realizing once you had the money that you couldn't do it or there were pieces that didn't work or how do you advise people to deal with that so that they're living in their integrity. But also telling the truth about I took your money and this didn't work.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah. You know, sometimes that is okay in the sense that you were putting out a hypothesis and you needed the funds to run the program to actually gauge whether or not this was going to be as effective. So that starts with being honest and upfront in the proposal where you're saying, we think this is going to help this particular cause in this particular way, but we need the funds to run the program to test it out to actually see. So it starts with being honest and upfront at the very beginning in the proposal that you're putting together.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
And then it really is the relationship that you have with the funder, right? So don't wait until the grant report is due to communicate that there was a problem or that things didn't work out in the way that you had want to rush in, you know, a week after funding and throw up your arms and everything is going awful. You want to be thoughtful about like when do you have data that might suggest that something isn't working the way that you had thought it would.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Talk with your team about it first because you want to be on the same page and then go to the funder. And what are you asking? Is it a reallocation of funds so you can say, hey, this just isn't going to work, but we still have two years left on the grant. What we were trying to do in the grant was this. I think if we pivoted and did this other program, we would still be addressing the same type of problem, the same type of concept, but with a much stronger likelihood of success. Every funder is going to appreciate that honest conversation because they're giving to you because they want to see you succeed.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
They care about whatever issue it is that you're working on. So they're going to be just as upset or disappointed if it doesn't work out. That doesn't necessarily mean they're upset and disappointed at you though, right? It might just be that that's what you found. But honest conversations with the grant officer, as appropriate and as quickly as possible when the kind of discovery of the the challenges come up. That's what I would advocate for, you know, with a solution too.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
You never want the funder to be the one to propose a solution. Have a couple of options in mind when you go to them so that it's not just like, well, this didn't work. Sorry, you know, you have a couple of pivots, ways that you could go with the remaining grant or even like a next phase of a grant if the first one didn't work as intended. Annalisa Holcombe: Do you find that most funders are willing to have those conversations?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yes, and especially if you have them at the right time before the final report, they want to know what's going on because, you know, if they gave to you, there's something about what you're doing, something about your mission that excites them, that interests them, that they find valuable and want to support, right? So just because you have problems doesn't mean that the core issue is gone or irrelevant. They want to be with you in how to solve those problems, right? How to identify solutions that can get you back on track.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Now, people are people, right? And so individuals might respond, they might be upset. They might ask you some tough questions about why this didn't work out the way that you had thought, or they might go back to that original proposal. This sounded pretty confident, like you said you were going to do this. So be prepared for those types of conversations, but they want to have those conversations.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
They definitely don't want surprises or for you to try to hide something and to say it was a success when in fact it wasn't. I think that's really helpful. Annalisa Holcombe: And now I want to move our conversation from like nitty gritty work stuff to talk a little bit about how do you live in integrity in your personal life? What does it mean to you? And do you have any examples of when either that has worked well for you or it hasn't.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
So I like that. One thing that I've been trying to do recently is just be more grateful to people, right? And to be grateful in a very specific way. So, you know, we can always say thank you more, but why am I thankful for that person or something that they did?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
And this is most related to work, but I can give some personal examples too. Like in work, you want to call out specifically what someone did well in, let's say they drafted a grand proposal. What is it that I liked about that? Why am I grateful for the time that they took for it? It's maybe they really got the client's voice, and that's not always easy to do.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
In personal life or in life in general, that's part of it's like, who has given me opportunities in my community, in my family, among friends, for me to be able to live out, you know, some personal value, right? So volunteer work. Volunteer organizations are giving you an opportunity to participate in some good in the world right and they're going to usually be thanking you because you're the volunteer and you're taking time to do that work but I'm trying even to think about Places that I've been able to volunteer at going back to the leadership of that organization or the volunteer kind of person that I report to and Saying thanks for this opportunity.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
You know, this is how it made a difference in my life. This is something that I got out of it. And it blows them away, you know, because they're always like, oh, well, you know, we, we always are so grateful for you. And for, for the work that you volunteers are doing, we never think that people would be grateful for us.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
And so it just, you know, the more that you can be grateful, the better in, in life. And everyone responds, you know, positively to, to that.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that Kyle, I wanna use that now. Like that is a new idea that I had not had, but I think of all of the people that I know, I'm also thinking of the work that I've done in my past, but there are so many people who work so hard, it takes a lot of work to actually create volunteer opportunities for people. It is often a thankless job. And so to have someone say thank you for allowing me to spread some of the things that I value in the world to act in a way that helps my own integrity as being a human is a gift. So thank you for giving me that gift. I love that. I'm going to do it more. That's beautiful. That's great. And the gratitude thing, focusing on gratitude is terrific. Annalisa Holcombe: I'm gonna ask you a weird question about that, that just occurred to me, which is like, talk to me about the gratitude you feel for those nieces and nephews and the time that you get to spend with them.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah, yeah. Well, especially because I'm not a parent, I still want to have some connection with the next let's let's say and I've had uncles and aunts that have had a meaningful role in in my life and I going back to your original point I think there is something about having an adult who isn't just your parent and building relationships especially when you're particularly young that's important because you learn to communicate you learn that other people care about you right right, that you are worthy of love.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
And so being able to share that, to show that love to my niece and the nephews has just been fantastic. And of course, what little I've given, I get back like 10 fold off of the experiences that they've given me by allowing me to be a part of their life and to see that. So I hope that I got to the question.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Yes, absolutely. It is that that reciprocal that they're feeling and that you're getting is that you are worthy of their time as well, right? Like, they're, they're giving you worthiness and dignity in the experience and spending time with Uncle Kyle, right?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah, yeah.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Because that's hard to get a burgeoning teenager to want to spend a week away from their family and friends and whatever else in video games or whatever they're doing to spend time with you going to have an adventure. So it means that it must be pretty special.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I want to lead that into my last question because I think in some ways you are absolutely, I'm sure that at least one of those kids would say that you're a mentor in their lives. And certainly I bet there are people who are your employees and your clients who would say the same thing. Who are, who is a mentor in your life or mentors? If you want to have a few, who has made a difference to you because none of us do this alone. It takes so much more. I would love to give you a chance to honor someone by talking a little bit about their mentorship of you and your life.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah. You know, who immediately who jumped to mind was a former boss of mine named Timothy Shaw. I worked with him, gosh, it's now going on like 15 years ago, on a project at Georgetown University before I came to Amphil. And I think he is the model of someone who lived with integrity, because as you kind of alluded to in academia, there's a lot of, there's a lot of conflict in academia, right?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
And we're at Georgetown and the project we were working on had some, I wouldn't say like directly political elements, but it was within the kind of political sphere or foreign policy in particular. So there's tension, there's, but this person, Timothy Shaw, really in every conversation lived a life of integrity in every way he was honest. He was grateful, he was humble, but he was also courageous, like he he was humble in the sense that he listened, he understood, he heard, but he didn't hold back, right?

Kyle Vander Meulen:
I mean if there was a point that needed to be made, he would make that point, but he would do it in a way with respect, and he cared individually about me and about the other people that were involved in the project. So he just was a model of hospitality as well. He and his wife would invite me and others over for dinner. And I mean, this house would be filled with food, just wonderful conversation and introducing you to people that they thought you should meet and would like to get to know. So he really is just kind of a model of of integrity, but also just a model of a wonderful human being that I would like to mirror in my own relationships with others.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that, that's beautiful. I hope that we can make sure that he gets a chance to hear it or that somebody he loves gets a chance to hear that because that's so important. And it goes to that idea that I have when I started the podcast about this being that we work more than we do anything in our lives. And so gosh, if we're going to have lives of purpose and meaning, we need to find it at work.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Whether it's in the job we already have or in a different job, because there is purpose and meaning to all sorts of things. And if we look for it, we can find and the the idea for me of being seen as a whole person it sounds like your mentor did that for you by saying like come I want to I want to know you I want to have dinner with you and I would like you to meet some cool and interesting people because I see you as a whole person Kyle and not just this person that does his task for me at a place.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
And that's a gift if you can if you can create even half of that experience for other people. That's a gift, you know that you are giving them that that they are seen as a whole person And my hope would be that this podcast and is your own gift to people that you're seeing people that you're bringing on as guests that are listeners that get to get to see and and feel seen throughout these conversations. So I love that you're doing this. I think that's fantastic.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Me too, I love that I'm doing it. And I am so grateful that you've been willing to do it because I thought, I don't get the chance to talk to Kyle as full Kyle in the way that I want to because I think he's fascinating already and he's so kind and smart and Kyle, you really get um really well and you're able to take ideas that sometimes are like floating around in the clouds that people like me say I don't know exactly what it looks like but I'm thinking like something like this and then you put it into some language that captures essences in ways that is magical so good for you.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
You've given me good missions to think about and your passion, I think, comes through so strongly. So I love that and I appreciate that I've been able to be a part of it.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Thank you. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. I appreciate your time so much. And I know that all of our listeners will as well.

Kyle Vander Meulen:
Yeah, thank you, Annalisa. This was fun.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Awesome. Thanks, Kyle. Have a great rest of your day.