Transcript:
Annalisa Holcombe (00:10):
Hi everyone. Hey. Did you hear the one about the podcaster and the CPA showing up in the same Zoom room? Okay. That's not a good setup to a joke, and it's not even funny, but hopefully the premise is interesting because on our podcast today we are talking about humor. We're joined by my friend, Troy Hooton, and he really is a CPA. He's also a CFO and an aspiring comedian. He has extensive experience in mergers and acquisitions, business valuation, tax, litigation support, poker, and dad jokes. And while he was waiting impatiently for his comedy career to take off, he was recognized by Utah Business magazine as one of Utah's top 40 under 40 and owned one of Utah's fast 50 growing businesses.

Annalisa Holcombe (01:04):
In addition to comedy, he has a passion for teaching and brought his real world experience and humor to the classroom as an adjunct professor teaching graduate level courses. And he's also kind and compassionate and a joy to be around, and he has something to teach us today.

Annalisa Holcombe (01:31):
The question that I always ask every beginning of every podcast that I do, and I got this from all of my years working with college students and using this as an interview question. And of course, when I said the question to them, I'd say, "The answer that you're about to give me is one that you would never normally say in a job interview. The answer is one that is much more personal, and that's the one that I'm looking for. So if you remove any reference to work, school, church activity, volunteerism, sports, research, those types of things. All of those things about what you do. If you take that away, what's your greatest accomplishment, or what are you most proud of about yourself as a human being?"

Troy Hooton (02:21):
You want the comedian and the accountant to get vulnerable, huh?

Annalisa Holcombe (02:25):
Right off the bat, yep.

Troy Hooton (02:27):
It's just and me, right? You're not going to tell anybody?

Annalisa Holcombe (02:28):
Exactly.

Troy Hooton (02:32):
No, it's a great question. It's interesting is, I had an experience recently that's caused me to think about this a little bit in a very emotional way, and so I'll try to get through this with just a straight answer without it kind of tearing at me a little bit. But the thing I'm most proud of ultimately, outside of all those things you mentioned, would be that I'm a jump-in-the-hole type of friend. And I'll give you a little story how it was put to me to put a little context to that.

Troy Hooton (03:07):
I was talking to my son a few weeks ago, and he was dealing with some great things in life and with some challenging things of life, and he just wanted one of those conversations that you have with a parent. And in the course of that conversation he stopped and he says, "You know, I was watching reruns of The West Wing recently. And there was a quick story on there where a guy walks along and he falls in a hole. And the first person that passes by is a doctor. He yells, "Help, help! I need help! Can you help me?" And the doctor writes a prescription and throws it in the hole, and that doesn't help him.

Troy Hooton (03:44):
The next passerby is a pastor and he's, "Help me! Help me! Can you help me?" And he writes him a prayer and throws it in the hole. And the third guy walks by is a friend. He says, "Help me! Help me! I'm in the hole." And the third friend just jumps in the hole with him. And the guy says, "Well, thanks, idiot. Now we're both in the hole." He says, "Yeah, but I've been here before and I know how to get out." And my son told me that that was one of the most important lessons he's learned from me and from my dad, to be that type-

Annalisa Holcombe (04:19):
The kind of man you are. That's the kind of human.

Troy Hooton (04:21):
... of jump-in-the-hole type of friend. I'm proud that, when I've had friends or loved ones, people close to me have a problem, I jump in the hole with them. And that creates some interesting challenges at times, but it's what I do. It's what I'm most proud of.

Annalisa Holcombe (04:39):
How did you feel when your son told you that?

Troy Hooton (04:41):
Oh, a lot of things. Pride. I was proud. I was happy that, I mean, you try to teach your kids so many things, and the fact that that's something that he remembers, that he builds on, that he believes was taught to him is great. So I felt, I was proud of him. He was dealing with some things in life and he was dealing with them very well. And so it was just a moment of pride. And he was also referring to my dad, who I lost last year. So it was emotional. Both of us were teared up a little bit. So it was good to know that my dad had an impact on him as well. So there was a lot of things.

Annalisa Holcombe (05:27):
I'm so impressed with that whole, how it's generational too. Those big, important lessons are the things that we want to pass down to our children and our children's children, et cetera.

Troy Hooton (05:41):
Yeah. Yeah, it was huge. It affected me for many days and now even weeks after.

Annalisa Holcombe (05:46):
That's so good because it reminds me of, I have had this conversation with students for many years, where we talk about the difference between sympathy and empathy. And we use this, there's a little Brené Brown clip that actually is a person going down in the hole. And the whole discussion is that sympathy is the, "Oh, I'm so sorry for you," and empathy means that you connect with the place in yourself that has that same kind of feeling that the other person has and get down in the hole with them. You feel it with them.

Annalisa Holcombe (06:18):
So real empathy takes so much more work and can be just as draining for the person who isn't in the situation but is feeling the situation with the person. But it also is the thing that lifts people up.

Troy Hooton (06:33):
Yeah, agreed completely. Yeah, that's awesome.

Annalisa Holcombe (06:36):
Awesome. Well, I love that story. It's such a good one, and I think it's really interesting. So talk to me a little, you know, I've known you as businessman Troy Hooton. So talk to me a little bit about, just so our listeners know, what your business background is a little, and then of course, today, I'm going to talk to my friend, the businessman and CPA, about humor. And so I think that that, I just love the juxtaposition of that, which I imagine you do too. So talk to me a little bit about, like your role in business and how that has drawn you toward thinking a lot and actually acting upon the importance of humor.

Troy Hooton (07:20):
No, absolutely. So there's a quick background on the business side. So business has always been my thing. I'm not sure I understand completely why but, I mean, my thing since the elementary playground days. I mean, I remember being turned on by business immediately and-

Annalisa Holcombe (07:38):
You were the Monopoly guy when you played board games or whatever. You're like-

Troy Hooton (07:42):
Totally. Yeah, I loved it. And I would be drawn to TV shows or, like Alex P. Keaton. Remember Family Ties and stuff? He was more political than business, but that was the type of person I thought I wanted to be, and so in high school I was all business all the time. I was part of a program called The Academy of Finance. I would actually wear suits to high school.

Annalisa Holcombe (08:08):
I love it. You were that guy.

Troy Hooton (08:09):
Oh, man. Yeah, I was crazy. And I went and did an internship in New York during high school.

Annalisa Holcombe (08:16):
Wow.

Troy Hooton (08:16):
I thought for sure I was Wall Street all the way. I didn't end up deciding to go back east but stayed here and went to the University of Utah, studied finance, just assumed that, no thought of ever being an accountant ever entered my head at that point, but accounting made sense, but I wanted to do finance. And so in finance had some really success working for different businesses. And then went to go get my MBA when an opportunity came for me to join and begin to take over a CPA firm. And I learned that I just had some natural aptitude to accounting, just like, every attempt to kill it, it was still there.

Troy Hooton (09:03):
As I went to MBA school. I needed that education to become a CPA, to be an MBA. Had to go back and actually... So I'm a CPA with no accounting degree, which is pretty rare. Went back, took a few classes. And in the course of completing my MBA, don't have to tell you this, met dozens and dozens of just amazing people that forever changed the course of my career. Some of them in just super intimate ways. Some of them I just stay in touch with. Led me into the path of teaching business. Led me down the path of entrepreneurship, which was always a dream. And some of those went spectacularly. Some of those didn't go so spectacularly. But loved every minute of it.

Troy Hooton (09:49):
So at the end of the day, I come out, I'm an MBA, a CPA, spent 10 years teaching in the MBA program, loving it. But like any good MBA or CPA, I grew up with comedy. It was part of how I communicated with my family. It was part of how I dealt with everything in my life. And so for the last, I don't know, many, many years, driving around thinking constantly how, there has to be a formula. There has to be a secret. Comedy can't just be, I can't just be a sarcastic smart-ass all the time. There's something here. There's a way to use this in business.

Annalisa Holcombe (10:32):
I love that you said there has to be a formula. What a CPA thing to say.

Troy Hooton (10:37):
Right? Yeah. And so one day I happened to, just by luck, catch a podcast with a lady by the name of Katie Goodman, who is based in New York, and she uses improv comedy as a business tool. And I heard the podcast with her. I immediately thought, I love this lady. She's great. She had some of the same relationships with her dad. And her dad, they shared Mash as a thing. My dad and I shared Mash as a TV show together. It's comedy. It's how we bonded in. And so there were a lot of things that drew me to Katie.

Troy Hooton (11:16):
And I got a chance to talk to her and meet with her, and I told her a little bit of my story and said, "Listen, I love comedy and I want to use it to, in business, but maybe even more specifically, I want to use it when businesses hit hard times." Because you know a little bit about my background. Some of our businesses hit rough waters, and there were times where comedy was the only way you got through the day. And so I felt, again, being a get-in-the-hole type, there are entrepreneurs out there who are getting their asses kicked and need help and there's nowhere to turn, and maybe I can help them. But not only help them with cash flow management or business management, maybe I can cheer them up. Maybe I can tell them a few jokes.

Troy Hooton (12:01):
And so I told her that story, and she said, "That is way cool, Troy." And this was like on a Thursday. She says, "I have an eight-hour improv comedy class in New York City on Saturday. Any chance you could be here?" And, "Free, if you can get here." So I did everything I could. The next day I was on a plane to New York-

Annalisa Holcombe (12:23):
Wow!

Troy Hooton (12:24):
To go study improv comedy with a bunch of actors in New York City.

Annalisa Holcombe (12:28):
Wow!

Troy Hooton (12:29):
And it was so cool. And so, obviously, massive intimidation, massive anxiety, but just sort of a, "You know what? What the hell. Let's go do it." And so I flew to New York, took the class, loved it, held my own, felt like I... And that was one thing Katie told me at the end. She goes, "You need to study this more, because you have what it takes. You have it. You can do this." And I'm like, "Well, that's great. That's awesome."

Troy Hooton (12:58):
So I came back to Salt Lake, signed up for an improv comedy class that went great for as long as it went before the early stages of COVID ended all get-togethers. So I ended up finishing what I could with that. And then I studied character sketch writing, like the SNL form, stuck to a couple classes there. And then also thanks to the pandemic, I was able to enroll with The Second City and study stand-up comedy, which is, Second City is the top of the-

Annalisa Holcombe (13:35):
Premier, yeah.

Troy Hooton (13:37):
It's the big one. So it's the same ones that launched Tina Fey or Steve Carell, or all the way back to John Belushi or John Candy. I mean, it is the standard. So normally you'd have to live in LA, Chicago, or New York to really, or Toronto to study there, but thanks to Zoom and the pandemic, I was able to study stand-up comedy at The Second City.

Annalisa Holcombe (13:58):
Wow.

Troy Hooton (13:59):
So that was a really long answer to a quick question, but it allowed, my curiosity, from a business standpoint and my just feeling that comedy was at my core, came together over the last two or three years in this search for the formula, and now I think I understand the formula a little bit.

Annalisa Holcombe (14:21):
I'm really interested in how you ended up thinking that the importance of comedy and humor to get you through the hard times. Like, that's how it first started for you.

Troy Hooton (14:33):
Yeah.

Annalisa Holcombe (14:33):
So talk to me about, what do you think that is that's that common thread that has to do with difficulty or pain and humor. Like, talk to me about what you see with that, and have you learned anything about that, because I feel like there's something there.

Troy Hooton (14:55):
Yeah. I think that, it's funny, it's probably the question I struggle with the most, because it has been my go-to number one coping mechanism for as long as I can remember. Any time I am faced with, like I mentioned, the business struggles or a personal struggle, or even eulogizing my father, comedy was ever present. I guess I haven't really ever known another way. But what I felt was, and maybe it's just that need that we've all developed as students in life to learn and know more about it is, I felt like this was my go-to, this was my safe place. Comedy, when I could make myself laugh, or distract myself and make others laugh that were having a hard time, that that was a good place to be. And it was the surest way I knew to know somebody was okay if I could get them to laugh. And same with myself.

Troy Hooton (16:02):
And so I thought about the comedy a lot during the early stages of some of the, with the great recession, some of the business challenges that came along, they were extraordinarily challenging. And on a day-to-day basis, I had to distract myself from just dwelling on those challenges, those pains, those fears, those insecurities that were coming up, those arguments, those fights with customers, vendors, employees. It was crazy.

Troy Hooton (16:44):
I wished I had a better answer to why it helps. I just know it does. And as I've studied it more, I think I've started to come in touch with how to use comedy better day-to-day, and I'm still piecing together how to help struggling entrepreneurs with it, because I think it's an important piece that, when your business fails, you feel like a failure. And your identity gets challenged, and who you think you are, how you think everybody sees you gets challenged. Sometimes it's trivialized when... You know the pain when somebody says, "Well, I lost a parent," or, "I lost a pet," or, "I lost my job," or some... There's all these pains. When you tell somebody, "Well, my business failed." Most of the times, people don't quite understand how painful and how personal that can get. And it was.

Troy Hooton (17:42):
And so I look back on the ways that we got through. Me, business partner, team, we laughed. We found a way to put some levity to things when we could, even when some of those failures led to lawsuits. We'd make fun of the judges, the lawyers, the people on the other side, the people... We did everything we could just to survive. And so to me, comedy is one of the great distractions and one of the great healers, if you learn how to use it the right way.

Annalisa Holcombe (18:21):
I think that's interesting. Tell me what you think of as the, like, is there a difference between the idea of comedy and the idea of humor? Do you personally think of a difference between those two things, or are they the same thing?

Troy Hooton (18:38):
I don't know if I'd separate. Personally, I think of comedy as more of the action. Humor is a little more of a concept. Like, what's funny... You know, it's been part of the discovering the formula is what's funny. And funny things are things that are incongruent. Something that, where I start telling you a story and you have one expectation, and then I switch it on you, and that's funny. Or I get you into some pattern that you see that you're, you've felt it. You've been there before. You get it. You know, I'm making a joke about a relationship. You're, "I know that. I recognize that." That's funny.

Troy Hooton (19:18):
And so humor has all these elements that are sort of universal. And to me, the comedy, sort of that action, is putting it into place, is doing that improv comedy, the sketch comedy, the stand-up comedy, the different forms and deliveries that come in. To me, it's more of an action. That's how I separate them anyways.

Annalisa Holcombe (19:41):
I do want to just drill a little bit deeper down into the difficult aspect of that. I had one of our podcast episodes early on, it wasn't about humor, but it was about values. And the individual spoke about his value, like his top thing he values the most is humor. And like that's as much as love, right? It is at the top.

Annalisa Holcombe (20:08):
But he also talked about how that could, because he'd always, that was his go-to of how to communicate with people, just who he was in the world, that when he experienced a terrible tragedy and was sad, that it was one of the hardest times for him, because the people who surrounded him did not know how to interact with him as a sad person. He was like, "I can't, I don't have it in me. I want to..." People would say like, "How are you today?" And he would be like, "I'm just sad." And people didn't know what to do. And he said, "I think that's also..." A hard thing for him is how to be in the world when you are known for your humor. I mean, talk to me a little bit about that. Have you experienced anything like that, or seen people in your family, since you're from a long line of comedians?

Troy Hooton (21:10):
You know, it's interesting, because it is that I think I'm lucky, if I think of myself just for a second, that I, if there's two parts of my personality, the humor is dominant and it's big, but I also have that, a lot of people will refer to me as the poker player. They can't tell where I'm at. Where I'm more stoic, where I'm more reserved. I guess where that allows you to be a CPA, just such a...

Annalisa Holcombe (21:40):
And actually a poker player. You're also a poker player for real.

Troy Hooton (21:45):
Right. And so I think when I've been in situations where someone's had to trust that I can be serious, that I can handle a situation, I think I've been lucky that that can be handled, that I'm competent and capable of that.

Troy Hooton (22:06):
It's interesting that I haven't really come across anybody that I think that can't be taken seriously, but I do think that there's a risk of it. I think you have to be, in business you want to utilize humor and you want to be the comedian in the room, that you've got to use it right.

Annalisa Holcombe (22:26):
I kind of love that, actually, Troy, because I'm really interested in the idea that we don't have to be separate people at work and at home, that we get to just be ourselves, whoever we are.

Troy Hooton (22:40):
Right.

Annalisa Holcombe (22:40):
And I love the idea of that whole, you can be funny and be a leader, and that's okay. I was interested in how you can use humor as a leadership tool, or as a way to connect with other individuals, and especially now. If we think about it... Of course, I always want to talk about what happens at work because, as you know, 92,000 thousand hours is about how we spend most of our time at work in our lives.

Troy Hooton (23:11):
Right.

Annalisa Holcombe (23:11):
So gosh, wouldn't that be sad if it's the place that we spend the most time, and if we naturally lean toward humor, that we would think that we can't have that in our lives. That's just heartbreaking, if that's actually the case.

Troy Hooton (23:26):
Oh, absolutely.

Annalisa Holcombe (23:27):
So how can, and how do you use, or have you seen someone using humor as a tool for connection in either the workplace or in our society because, gosh, we're so disconnected.

Troy Hooton (23:43):
Yeah, right. So let's split those up, because I agree. For me, in my mind, there are two big concepts there. Yeah, very distinct. So let's start with the business, and we'll come back more to the societal, because I'd love to talk about both. Maybe just visualize this with me a little bit. You and I both have sat through hundreds, if not thousands, of meetings. I would dare say, I'd be curious if you'd agree, that most of the meetings I've ever attended have never met the stated agenda or the goals or objectives of the meeting, and oftentimes I've been more bored than inspired. And I've probably often spent more time on my cell phone than I was paying attention to what was even going on.

Annalisa Holcombe (24:31):
Yeah.

Troy Hooton (24:31):
And so, one of the interesting things about comedy, and more specifically improv comedy, and this is improv comedy, for reference for folks, if you think about Whose Line Is It Anyway? It's a show on TV where there's games and short form where actors and comedians are playing off each other all the time. And I have found, it's one of the things that Katie first got me started on in New York and since I've continued to research and learn, but you think about it. A lot of times people will see those improv shows and go, "How do they do this?" How does someone just give them a topic out of nowhere and they make a show out of it? How does this work?"

Troy Hooton (25:13):
And as you break it down and learn how to do that, there is some fabulous lessons in business that can be learned. And the core one that you'll hear most frequently is a concept called Yes, and..., which if, you and I were playing-

Annalisa Holcombe (25:29):
That is a negotiating tool as well.

Troy Hooton (25:31):
Kid of, yeah.

Annalisa Holcombe (25:31):
Yeah.

Troy Hooton (25:32):
So if you and I were playing a game to build on a funny story, and you said, "Hey, a white horse comes up, a beautiful white horse walks up on us," and I'm like, "Oh, yeah, and there's a monkey on the horse, and he's riding the horse," and you're like, "Oh, yeah. And then the monkey fell off and the horse ran away." And you would kill the creativity and the vibe by not saying, "Yes, I see what you're saying and more." Like, "And he's wearing a football jersey and smoking a cigar." I mean, you just, you put something funny on it, and then we keep adding and you build it up. And so the whole Yes, and... thing. If you went into a meeting where people just weren't negative immediately.

Annalisa Holcombe (26:21):
Yeah.

Troy Hooton (26:21):
So that's one of the tools.

Annalisa Holcombe (26:23):
Like the brainstorming. It's like a really, instead of finding what's wrong with, and there's never going to be a horse that walks up to me.

Troy Hooton (26:31):
Right.

Annalisa Holcombe (26:31):
Instead you're going to say, "There's not only a horse, but a monkey's on his back."

Troy Hooton (26:37):
Right. And so to do improv comedy, you've got to have this Yes, and... You've also got to listen intensely. And frankly, this was where I would fail most times. I didn't know this about myself, I guess I should have, I'm a horrible listener. I'm so busy thinking in my head, I may hear what you say, but I didn't listen. And so in improv comedy, if I'm not listening and you said, "The horse rides in," and all of a sudden now it's on me, and I didn't hear the horse, I'm lost. I'm done. And I think so many of us today are so busy upstairs, or on our phones, or distracted, that we're not present with what's going on.

Annalisa Holcombe (27:19):
We're just thinking about what our cool reply is going to be.

Troy Hooton (27:22):
Right. Exactly. Yeah, or we're trying to say, yeah. We're trying to be three and four steps down the road and so we miss it. And we're not flexible, and we've got... Another one, to do this improv comedy, you have this inner critic that's in you. It's like, "Don't say that. That's stupid." "Whoa. Keep that..." It's part of that inner monologue that's distracting us too, but it's also telling us, "You're stupid. Don't say that." Kill that thing. Fire that inner critic. And so these ideas of, can you imagine a meeting if everybody sat down...

Annalisa Holcombe (27:54):
I love this so much, Troy. This is like, really good nuggets.

Troy Hooton (27:58):
Yeah.

Annalisa Holcombe (27:58):
These are really good nuggets about how to be at work.

Troy Hooton (28:02):
Yeah, thank you. If everybody sat down and wanted to build on it. If everybody was listening. If there were no bad ideas, you kill the inner critic, you listen, you get present, just think how much better those meetings would be, because now-

Annalisa Holcombe (28:14):
And how you'd look forward to going to the meeting instead of not being there.

Troy Hooton (28:18):
Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, for sure.

Annalisa Holcombe (28:21):
So good. That's really good stuff.

Troy Hooton (28:25):
Yeah. And there is so many more on improv comedy, but it's, and that to me was rewarding, in that I knew there was a formula. There was steps. I knew there was an outline that I could put together that could go in Excel-

Annalisa Holcombe (28:39):
That you could highlight. It could go in Excel.

Troy Hooton (28:43):
And so that's something I've learned. So when you talk about how to use it as a tool day to day in the business, I think there's a lot of things. From the stand-up side, and the sketch comedy side is very similar, is first of all, every time someone says something about stand-up, almost without fail the first thing they say is, "How did you get up there? How did you stand up in front of those people and do that?" And so there's this issue of guts. And so I think it does help you start to fire that inner critic where, if you at least have enough guts to get up on the stage, you've already won part of the battle.

Annalisa Holcombe (29:22):
It's that imposter syndrome stuff. You've just got to get over it.

Troy Hooton (29:25):
Yeah. Yeah. And what you learn in stand-up is that stand-up is two parts. It's the writing and performing. And that's not particularly profound; that makes sense. But the real trick to stand-up is the writing. Good stand-up happens long before you ever see it on the stage. And it's one thing that I never appreciated, and most people don't, is that you watch a stand-up comedian for five minutes, that is, that material has been in the works for months. It's been hours and hours and hours, if not dozens of hours, where it's been tried, it's been tested, it's been refined. And almost always, you write a joke, revise it, shrink it. Write it, revise it, shrink it. And you get concise. And you have to, because if you're trying to make somebody laugh, you don't have a lot of time up there. And so not only now have you been gutsy, but now you're clearly thinking about what you want to say. You're writing it down in advance. You're getting clear. You're getting concise.

Annalisa Holcombe (30:28):
And you're prepared.

Troy Hooton (30:29):
You're prepared.

Annalisa Holcombe (30:29):
You're super prepared.

Troy Hooton (30:30):
Yeah. And so if you go into those meetings, just like some of the negotiation stuff, if you go to that table, the meeting or the negotiating table, and you're prepared, and you're concise, and you're clear, and you've done your homework, you've won a big part of the game. And so I think there's a lot of stand-up principles that mean a lot in business as well.

Annalisa Holcombe (30:49):
I'm learning so much right now. I'm learning so much right now. I'm going to take this, and it's actually, I mean, I'd say it's a little bit funny, but it's not because I'm like, "Oh! I now know things I need to do that are going to actually help me in my next board meeting."

Troy Hooton (31:05):
Good. That's all-

Annalisa Holcombe (31:06):
And they're not about being funny. They're about being-

Troy Hooton (31:08):
Yeah, they're just good.

Annalisa Holcombe (31:08):
... really prepared and really clear and practicing in advance. Yeah, it's all of that.

Troy Hooton (31:13):
Absolutely, yeah.

Annalisa Holcombe (31:40):
If you like what you're hearing today, remember to visit our website and social media pages for more. We'll post reminders of lessons learned, including Troy's three simple lessons from improv comedy as a leadership tool. I'm already trying to put them to work in my daily life.

Troy Hooton (32:07):
We'll make sure we come back to that societal part too, because I love that part of the discussion. I don't know if we want to just dive into that or if we want to...

Annalisa Holcombe (32:13):
Yeah, let's do. Let's talk about that. Yeah.

Troy Hooton (32:17):
So, I think, from a societal, that humor and comedy, specifically, is huge. I actually think, and I'm not, a friend we have in common would tell you this, really quickly, I am not a great student of history, although I love it. I wished I had been better. And so I get anxious when I start making statements like this, but to me, comedy has been one of the great change agents in history and in our culture.

Troy Hooton (32:45):
And as I think comedians, they observe us. They think about what we do. They watch. They look at our reactions. And they point out the things that are silly or absurd, or maybe shouldn't happen, and they put it in a way that you can hear and not be so charged, and no so personal, and maybe there's something you need to change. And you need to hear it, but the comedian's job is to tell us a story, walk us down a path, be clear and concise, but make fun of things that we do. And I think it's, you don't have to go very far back in history, if you go back, even watch some of the comedy sets of the '40s and '50s, '60s, you'll find such different humor, such different societal norms, things on race or gender or sexual orientation. It'll blow your mind. But the comedians have been part of bringing that narrative and dialogue forward and making-

Annalisa Holcombe (33:56):
So we can see that it was, like it gives it air so you can see how it needs to be changed.

Troy Hooton (34:04):
Right. Yeah, it gives it life. You talk about it. If we don't ever talk about it, I don't know how you ever address or change anything, if it's tucked away. It's part of what makes me sad. And again, not to be political with it, but right now we're silencing a lot of comedians and so many old bits, all old things are getting dug up. Like, "Oh, you made homophobic comments 15 years ago." It's like, "Yeah, I did, but I evolved. I learned. You wouldn't find it in my set now. You did then." But then all of a sudden they get... I mean, Kevin Hart just went through that with the Oscars. He lost his hosting spot at the Oscars, when it would have been a better opportunity to like, Kevin Hart, win over our hearts and say, "Sorry. I said something I wished I hadn't now. It was appropriate or part of the environment then. It's not now."

Annalisa Holcombe (34:54):
And I've learned so much. I don't believe these things anymore.

Troy Hooton (34:57):
Yeah.

Annalisa Holcombe (34:57):
Yeah.

Troy Hooton (34:58):
Instead, we just didn't let him even talk. And so I've heard a lot of comedians now start to show more, they've been more, it's been challenging. They've been holding back a little bit from being a little, as honest as they'd like to be. And I still respect and love the comedians that can just tell you how they see it. They don't have to agree with me. In fact, I love hearing comedians who don't agree with me, who have different points of view, and they help me challenge, in a good way, in a fun way, in a way that I love, I can consume their thoughts for hours because I'm enjoying myself and they've taught me something. I've learned something. I've seen a different point of view. And they did it in a way that wasn't lecturing, wasn't yelling at me, wasn't in my face about it, wasn't trying to challenge some long-held belief that I've had. It's just been, let's have fun with this. Let's look at it and see, and let's see where we go with it.

Troy Hooton (35:58):
And so I think it's too bad. I think society needs comedians. I think it needs comedy. I think it needs humor. I think we need to make fun of ourselves. I think that's what takes us places. I think, you've probably seen, like I have so many people get their political views, maybe not as much now, but 10 years ago for sure, from late night comedians. I mean, Leno and Letterman would set the stage for-

Annalisa Holcombe (36:24):
What we thought.

Troy Hooton (36:26):
You can almost know based on who they would make fun of. But those folks, the Lenos, the Lettermans, and now the Fallons and Kimmels of the world, and Bill Mahers and stuff, they hold politicians accountable. When they do stupid shit, they call them out on it. They go after them. And I think that's needed. I think that's important.

Annalisa Holcombe (36:50):
That's true. And you were talking about that, I think, like there's this comedian, Jordan... Is it Jordan Klepper? I don't know. He's on The Daily Show. Oh my gosh, he's hilarious.

Troy Hooton (37:01):
Right. Right.

Annalisa Holcombe (37:01):
Hilarious because he just goes out and talks to real people, and you can see... And he's so smart in the moment and witty in the moment that it's hilarious.

Troy Hooton (37:10):
Right, right.

Annalisa Holcombe (37:11):
And I think it makes people think. So that makes a lot of sense to me.

Troy Hooton (37:14):
Yeah, it really does. I think it plays an important role. And I think it's just one of those things that we need to be careful of, not to become so politically correct that we can't laugh at ourselves, because I think we'll lose some important lessons there or some opportunities to grow if we just all have to shut up and not talk about any of this.

Annalisa Holcombe (37:33):
I think that's right. I think it's helpful too, that if, you know how we're such an urban versus rural, and right versus left. We're so versus in our country right now that it also would probably be good if left leaning people made more fun of left leaning people and right leaning people made more fun of right leaning people.

Troy Hooton (37:55):
Oh, you're so... I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, absolutely. I think one of my favorite comedians to listen to is actually Bill Maher. And politically, I'm probably not so, I'm not too far off from him, but we're definitely a little bit different. And Bill Maher, many people may not, he is patterned, or one of his mentors was Johnny Carson. I always loved Johnny Carson growing up. And so Bill Maher, I see Johnny when I hear him, so I've just always enjoyed his style of comedy. I love how candid he is. I think he's funny. But he lately has-

Annalisa Holcombe (38:30):
Been taking on the left.

Troy Hooton (38:33):
He is.

Annalisa Holcombe (38:33):
He is.

Troy Hooton (38:34):
I love that. It's so honest. It's like, he has enough honesty to say, not just to toe the line and say, "You know what? Folks on the right, shame on you. Folks on the left, shame on you." And he'll take them on both, and I love it. I think it's an important thing. You're so right about that.

Annalisa Holcombe (38:52):
I do like the idea, though, how it's a connection tool, right? Like a way that we really connect with each other is through humor. Because we all can see, I don't know, like when things are a little ridiculous. And having somebody point it out or make a joke about it is so much fun.

Troy Hooton (39:13):
Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah, and I love those moments too when somebody, when a comedian connects, and I learn something as well, or I see a different point of view. And it's hard. So as I have been working to tweak and find my own comedic voice, I try hard to find those, right? And I'm still getting there. I still don't exactly have my comedic voice down the way I would like to. But I hope when I get that there, that there is, I love the... Remarkably, and you know me, this might surprise you, I love being vulnerable on stage. I'm okay with opening up. I'm okay with making fun of myself. I'm okay with, a bunch of my sets have stuff where I'm the butt of the joke. And I think it opens me up and it makes people feel like they relate. They're like, "Oh, this guy has the same challenges and issues and things that I do. He's not hung up on himself. He can..."

Troy Hooton (40:27):
So it opens up, I mean, this isn't part of it, just as example. You can't go on stage and talk about erectile dysfunction and then come down and meet somebody after the show and not have them feel like they can talk to you about anything, because you've already been there. So it's a great thing that we don't take ourselves so seriously, and comedians are pretty good at that. At least at making you feel like they don't take themselves very seriously. And I think that feeds into the connection and the relationships. And opening up your relationships, I think that's really important.

Annalisa Holcombe (41:06):
I think that's so interesting. You just have me reflecting. In my day job, we have a monthly town hall that's, often there are parts to it that are filmed beforehand because there are about 8500 employees across the country. So our monthly town hall is big, and it's often live. We even have a studio. And I've had to host at the studio with all the people watching. They often do these little bits. The CFO is bald and makes jokes about his baldness almost every time he's on there, or like, there's always some jokes he's doing at his own expense when he's up there.

Annalisa Holcombe (41:53):
And it also made me think. We had a giant all hands meeting where everybody comes together, and we were at the Eccles Theater in Salt Lake. Big place. And for part of how we learned things, it was through a pretend game show. Like, oh, gosh. What's the one called where, it was Richard Dawson that ran it? Anyway.

Troy Hooton (42:15):
Family Feud?

Annalisa Holcombe (42:16):
Family Feud. It was like Family Feud. And our CEO was up there as kind of Richard Dawson-y, dressed in a '70s suit. And he came alive. Like he's so serious, but give him a second to be Richard Dawsonesque and make fun of himself and be goofy and wear weird glasses and dress like he's in the '70s, and he had a ball.

Troy Hooton (42:43):
Right. Right. And I think that's so good because now somebody's sitting and watching that meeting who maybe has the next great idea that needs to be talked about, that needs to be looked at. Maybe they're fighting their inner critic like, "Eh, he'll probably think that's stupid, and he doesn't seem very approachable." But now they see that and they're like, "This is a real person."

Annalisa Holcombe (43:05):
Yeah. "He's watched Family Feud just like I have."

Troy Hooton (43:08):
Yeah. He's just as goofy as I am.

Annalisa Holcombe (43:10):
Yeah.

Troy Hooton (43:10):
So maybe they now feel empowered to say, put their idea on the table. I think it all helps.

Annalisa Holcombe (43:16):
I think so too. I think it's really interesting. And I did want to talk to you, I told you that I'd read this article, and it was actually, I keep reading these articles, and I don't know how they come up, which, this in and of itself is fascinating, but I'm diving into different things that I want to talk about. And this article I read was in a military magazine. So all these things that I want to talk about that are kind of vulnerable end up showing up in military magazines or military discussions, so that's something to put a pin in. That's really interesting.

Troy Hooton (43:48):
Yeah.

Annalisa Holcombe (43:49):
But the article was about different types of humor, and I sent this to you because I thought it was interesting. They were saying there are four types. Affiliative, which I think is like, we have affiliations. I can see it's funny because I see myself in it or we have, it's those things that we all get.

Troy Hooton (44:11):
Yep.

Annalisa Holcombe (44:14):
Self enhancing. I don't know exactly. Like that's the stuff that makes you better? But there's also aggressive and self-defeating. So they were talking about how all four of those show up, but some of them can be good and some of them can actually hurt our relationships and our connections.

Troy Hooton (44:36):
No doubt.

Annalisa Holcombe (44:37):
So talk to me a little bit about that, and have you noticed that, where you might have been leaning toward self-defeating instead of self-enhancing in your vulnerability in your stand-up and how that makes you feel and how we might watch out for it if we do it ourselves?

Troy Hooton (44:54):
Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, I agree with you. I think you're really close on your premise there, the question is... I've always been somewhat self-deprecating. And I think that that's not always, that wasn't always just in the interest of comedy. I think it's a...

Annalisa Holcombe (45:17):
I'm going to say it about myself first before you say it to me.

Troy Hooton (45:20):
Yeah, yeah. It's a defense mechanism. Maybe it's a mild cry for help at times. Maybe it's some insecurities and anxieties fighting their way through. You just want people to know. And so I think self-deprecating, of all those styles, was part of my go-to. It's part of being sarcastic, where affiliative is a little more like the nice guy stuff. It's the every man every day. The late night comic tries to find that type of comedy. Jerry Seinfeld's a guy that's the classic master of that type of stuff and just has a show about nothing. There really is no-

Annalisa Holcombe (46:02):
It's just the funny stuff that happens when you go to the dry cleaner or whatever.

Troy Hooton (46:04):
Right.

Annalisa Holcombe (46:05):
Yeah.

Troy Hooton (46:05):
Right, yeah. It's just great stuff, and so it's funny. So self-deprecating, I think, is so funny because I do think it opens you up. I do think it makes you vulnerable. I think it makes you approachable, and I think people are good at it, generally. I think it's the one that they... You mentioned other types. Aggressive. Aggressive is probably the one that where you most often come across something being hurtful. And I can't remember necessarily great examples of this, but I know that I would have been guilty of that at times.

Troy Hooton (46:42):
I mean, I do remember, even at a young age, just, I don't even know why I remember this, but I was probably about 11 or 12. It was summertime, and me and my buddy were out and around and we were around some other kids, in this case happened to be boys, and they were just being jerks. And I ended up going with the aggressive comedy and just berated these guys and just made, sort of like that Sandlot. That scene where they're yelling at each other on the baseball... And I lit these kids up. And I remember leaving and my friend saying, "Wow. You're really good at that." And it stuck with me, that that was somehow a skill. And so obviously I was like, at that age, took pride in it. "Oh, great. So if I really wanted-"

Annalisa Holcombe (47:35):
It was your way to fight back the bullies.

Troy Hooton (47:36):
Yeah. I could do that.

Annalisa Holcombe (47:37):
With words, instead of fists. And that makes a lot of sense. I think it's probably why I struggle with those, like some of the celebrity roast things, where you're like, "That just crossed a line and it's not funny anymore. Why are we laughing?"

Troy Hooton (47:52):
Right. Yeah. In fact, so about three years ago, I had a dear friend ask me if I would emcee a roast for their 50th birthday. And it was a room of about 30, 40 people, most acquaintances, but I got to do about 45 minutes of roasting one of my really good friends. I loved it. It was a riot.

Annalisa Holcombe (48:23):
You could get out all the things you wanted to say over all this time.

Troy Hooton (48:27):
Right. And then I got to roast a whole bunch of my friends who were in the crowd. And they were all given opportunities, but it wasn't really fair, because I was sort of the only one who came prepared. They didn't really know what to expect. I say that because I was in, you talk about going over the line. I had some hilarious stuff. And I had some stuff that probably pushed the bounds, but that's what comedians do.

Troy Hooton (48:51):
I hope I don't violate any confidences. My friend who was turning 50, he's a hugger. He's a lover. He's a friendly type, very hands on, and he likes to hug the girls a lot. And so I joked that, and I come up with, we'll call them, jeez, Monica, and... What are some girls... Monica and, the characters from Friends. Just kind of...

Annalisa Holcombe (49:27):
Rachel. Monica and Rachel.

Troy Hooton (49:28):
Monica and Rachel. So we'll just use names to protect the innocent. But I'm like, I said, "Well, I don't want to call him handsy, but after the last party, both Rachel and Monica canceled their mammograms." Basically... And everybody loved it. And the two ladies who were involved thought it was hilarious, and all was well.

Troy Hooton (49:46):
But we had a Christmas party three weeks later, and he felt it necessary to stop the proceedings, everybody grab a drink, have a toast, and tell them that he was sorry and that he had been inappropriate and... And I felt, I wanted to crawl under the Christmas tree and hide. I'm like, "You've got to be kidding me. That was totally a joke. It was not..." But he was, he just felt, out of caution-

Annalisa Holcombe (50:12):
He worried, yeah.

Troy Hooton (50:15):
If I am that guy, let me know. And so you've got to be careful. Aggressive can, as you say, those roasts, you can push the limits and strike something in somebody that you didn't mean to.

Annalisa Holcombe (50:28):
How do you approach, I love the idea of humor helping not take yourself too seriously, because I think in the business world, especially, and at work, things seem so big. I always tell a story that, when I was practicing law, we were always taking ourselves so seriously. We're lawyers. We have a lot of important things to do. And I remember my boss once saying to me, this was when I was still, I think I was probably still in law school. I worked for her afterward as well. But she said, "There's no such thing as a legal emergency, so get over yourself. The only legal emergency is when it's 11:50 PM and the governor's on the phone, and your client's about to not live anymore."

Troy Hooton (51:10):
Right.

Annalisa Holcombe (51:10):
And so she's like, "That's the only one. Everything else you can figure out."

Troy Hooton (51:14):
Right.

Annalisa Holcombe (51:14):
And so, but we do take ourselves so seriously at work. How have you used humor to help with that? Especially when you said at the beginning, some of these times when you've been in really difficult situations where things are kind of blowing up around you? How have you seen it work, and how have you seen it not work?

Troy Hooton (51:37):
So yeah, I think we do take ourselves way too seriously, and I, as I get older, I think I find, I think it comes with age for all of us who find better, you start to realize what's important and what's not and get better at it. But I think humor is, where I've been able to use it kind of as a practical thing is employee reviews, is one place that I have…

Annalisa Holcombe (52:02):
That's helpful. I've never tried to do that. Tell me. What have you done?

Troy Hooton (52:08):
So I have had a couple of examples in the last five years where, one gentleman I remember in particular was struggling. It was my job to give him constructive feedback to do with his review, and the goal, talking candidly outside the review, whoever, was saying, "You've got to fix him. You've got to change him. It has to happen now, or he needs to find another place to be employed." And wow, okay.

Troy Hooton (52:36):
So I did an honest assessment of what I thought he needed to work on. I collected other ideas. And then I thought about it for a minute. I thought, "How can I convey this to this..." Because I would say he's 28, 29, 30, somewhere in there. Young enough that it probably would be pretty crushing. And I don't remember exactly what I said, but I went at it with all humor and said, "Here's some things." I put them in anecdotes, or I put them in funny, or added something as a joke to it.

Troy Hooton (53:08):
And we spent a good hour, hour and a half, going through this review. And he got it. And he understood. And his actions did change. He changed how he... And a few weeks later, there was a chance for the staff to evaluate the partners, or the managers, and I got feedback that that was the best review he'd ever had.

Annalisa Holcombe (53:34):
Wow.

Troy Hooton (53:35):
And that it did bring about change. And that he heard some things he didn't want to hear, but they were delivered in a way that felt compassionate and funny, and at least when he looked back on them he could giggle a little bit, because there was something there to laugh about. So that's where I've seen it work really well.

Annalisa Holcombe (53:54):
Gosh, Troy. I see that as your way to get in the hole with that person.

Troy Hooton (54:04):
Yeah, yeah. Definitely. Yeah, I appreciate that. I think that I agree with that.

Annalisa Holcombe (54:09):
So I want to make sure I ask you another question with regard to, as you know, I care deeply about all things mentoring. And I was interested in you telling me if you could, tell me about someone who has been a mentor in your life and why that person matters to you. Tell me a story about what good mentoring looked like in your life, or still does.

Troy Hooton (54:39):
Yeah. Man, right off the top is, I feel blessed. Frankly, I've had so many mentors, and some more intimate and close than others. And so I guess I should say... Well, no, personally and professionally I've been blessed with a lot of mentors. I can never answer that question, especially right now. It has to do with just losing my dad last year, that he was the ultimate mentor for me. And I still look at every decision and thought and idea that goes through my head through the window that he provided me. His mentorship and friendship and advice and stuff just was amazing. And it's missed every day.

Troy Hooton (55:32):
And so, he's the ultimate. He's the top of the mountain for me. And I've had a lot of great ones. Even a gentleman I work with now who owns the company that I'm a CFO for has been a mentor and provided different, he's given me a different look at business in ways that I haven't seen it before, which has been really interesting. So that's been great.

Troy Hooton (55:59):
I love mentorship. You know that. We've been down that path before. It's so important. I'm glad that you've always been such a great champion of it, and I think it's, every chance I can be a mentor, and even if it's as a hole jumper. If it's jumping in the hole with them to be a mentor, I take it, because that's what I cherish. That's what I love. To me, if you don't have those kind of relationships and connections in life, I frankly can't figure out why you'd want to do it.

Annalisa Holcombe (56:29):
I agree completely, and I love that you talked about your dad right off the bat. And I haven't acknowledged that I'm so sorry for your loss of your dad.

Troy Hooton (56:37):
Oh, no, thank you.

Annalisa Holcombe (56:40):
That's super hard.

Troy Hooton (56:41):
Oh, yeah. No, I appreciate it. He's just been ever present on my mind, and a lot over the last three months is, when you lose somebody that close, you, if you're a hole jumper, you get in and make sure everybody else grieves first and everybody else gets taken care of and that they're okay and they're fine. And then at some point, everybody's okay-

Annalisa Holcombe (57:00):
And now it's time for your grief.

Troy Hooton (57:02):
Yes. And I think I've come to that spot.

Annalisa Holcombe (57:05):
Ah, my goodness. If I could ever, the story that you told about the hole jumper I think might be my new shorthand for what I'm looking for in my mentors and in my friendships and my personal relationships, as well as my ability to, myself, be either a good mentor or a good boss. I really want to take away from this conversation the importance of being a good hole jumper, but also, holy cow. I'm going to go back and rewind so I can listen to those particular lessons about improv and stand-up that can actually apply to my life in ways that I had no idea.

Troy Hooton (57:44):
Oh, yeah.

Annalisa Holcombe (57:45):
And it's not even about the humor of it. It's about the way, about the life skills that go along with it.

Troy Hooton (57:50):
It's the formula. I'll send you a spreadsheet.

Annalisa Holcombe (57:53):
That'd be great. Thanks so much, Troy. Thanks so much for spending a big portion of your afternoon with me.

Troy Hooton (58:00):
Oh, thank you. It's an honor. I love it. Appreciate you.

Annalisa Holcombe (58:41):
I want to thank Troy for sharing his humor, but also his deep wisdom with us today. You can connect with him on LinkedIn. And if I hear from enough of you, I bet I could talk him into sharing one of his stand-up videos with us on our website. Until then, I hope you join us next week when we'll be joined by Tofi Ta’afua, and we'll spend some time really digging into what it means to feel like we belong. I hope you'll join us.