Ep 5: Fear with Susan Arsht
92,000 Hours
Ever been paralyzed by fear? Held back from pursuing your dreams? Well, you're not alone. Join us as we sit down with the insightful Dr. Susan Arsht, a seasoned professor of management, to unravel the mysteries around fear and its impact on our lives.
Learn how fear, often considered a hurdle or roadblock, can become a potent motivator leading us to new experiences and growth. We’ll also explore the pervasive issue of imposter syndrome and its impact on professionals.
We dive into the difference between survival fear and the fear that hinders us from exploring new horizons. Dr. Arsht's personal anecdotes and proven strategies make for an enlightening discussion, providing you with fresh perspectives and practical tools to conquer your fears and push beyond the confines of your comfort zone.
Transcript
0:00:01 - Annalisa Holcombe
Did you know that the average human spends 92,000 hours at work during their lifetime? That's more than we spend eating, cleaning, driving, watching TV or even surfing the internet? In fact, work is what we do most. It comes second only to sleeping. Welcome to 92,000 hours, the podcast that believes in the integration of life and work.
I'm your host, Annalisa Holcomb. Before we begin, I wanted to tell you a quick story about why this podcast is so personal to me. I began practicing law at age 26 and learned many valuable lessons, including that I was deeply unhappy at work. Although I was on a path that looked like traditional success, I realized that I needed to quit my job in order to align myself with my passion and purpose. Now I am dedicated to making sure all of our 92,000 hours at work are spent well instead of simply spent. How do we construct a working world that values and accommodates our humanity? How do we construct a life that is not separate from, but fueled by, the purpose we find in our work? In this podcast, we will explore those questions and more. In each episode, I will speak to someone that demonstrates meaning, passion and purpose in their work. Join me in discovering what happens when we bring our whole selves to our work, schools and communities.
This week, I am joined by Dr Susan Arsht. Susan is a professor of management at the Bill and Veeve Gore School of Business at Westminster College and previously served as the executive director of the Center for Innovative Cultures. Susan received her PhD in intercultural communication from the University of New Mexico. Her dissertation focused on quality connections, positive relationships and positive organizational climate. In the spirit of the Halloween season, we will be talking about fear. Of course, I don't mean zombies or ghosts, but instead the fear we encounter at work and in our personal lives Fear of change or taking that next step. Susan shares with us her strategies for conquering our fears and stepping out of our comfort zones. Let's jump in, alright. So if you remove any reference to work, school, sports, volunteerism, church activity all of those things that we think of when we talk about success often, take all those out of your head. What is your greatest accomplishment or what is it that you're most proud of about yourself as a human being?
0:02:55 - Susan Arsht
This may be a sideways answer, I'm not sure, but what it reminded me of is an offhand comment I made to a colleague years ago, which was I'm my best self when I'm on the road, and I think what that speaks to is that when things are different, when there is an environment that's new, when I'm going to another country which I had the opportunity and the great luck to be in a role in work and also by choice, privately to travel to many places when things get a little crazy, that's when my best self comes out. And when things get and when, again new, the first time, I do something in some ways, I think I do it the best and I don't speak on my feet, but I act on my feet. I think is what I would say.
0:04:06 - Annalisa Holcombe
What we had talked about in terms of an overarching discussion. Subject today is fear.
0:04:13 - Susan Arsht
I think for some of us, fear is a motivator. Ooh, let's talk about that. And I certainly believe that's true for me. I also made the. Maybe I talked too much because I made the. I made it again an offhand comment to my son some years ago when I was talking about going overseas on just a personal trip and I said I'm a little nervous about going on this trip. You know I'm putting it together for our family, etc. But I said you know, so that's when I know, when I'm afraid to go on a trip, something I love to do, that's when it's time to go. Ooh, and there have been several times since then when he has brought that up, when I said, oh, I'm nervous, or oh, I'm afraid, or oh, this makes me uncomfortable.
Well then, mom, it's time to do it. So I think that the idea of fear keeping you in one spot and not moving forward or not addressing you don't even have to address it sometimes you can. Sometimes it's go around it and get there. Now, of course, we're not talking about the kind of fear like I'm trapped in a corner by somebody that I don't know, or just the absolutely terrible, negative fear that is where fight or flight really is important Right exactly there's a fire there's, you know you're being chased by somebody. That's not the kind of fear that I'm talking about.
0:05:55 - Annalisa Holcombe
You're just more like existential.
0:05:58 - Susan Arsht
Yes, it's more like the fear that you know if you moved forward, something new would happen, but you're afraid to do it. That's the kind of fear and something new might not be good for not life threatening, not good but it might not be.
0:06:17 - Annalisa Holcombe
You might find out.
0:06:17 - Susan Arsht
You don't like what you're getting into. I think learning what we don't like to do or what we're not good at is actually just as helpful as what we like to do and what we're good at, and the only way is to try it. Yeah, and so that's what. That's the kind of fear, and I think there are strategies. So I don't know, are there people that don't ever fear? I don't know.
0:06:45 - Annalisa Holcombe
That would be. I would be surprised if that's the case. I mean, maybe they don't tell us. But I would be surprised if there are people that don't, and I might be a little afraid of them.
0:06:55 - Susan Arsht
Exactly? And is it about realizing what strategies work for you to get beyond that fear or to work through that fear or to recognize where it comes from, but having some strategies that can help.
0:07:16 - Annalisa Holcombe
So do you have any? Have you learned some over the course of your? And how have you learned them?
0:07:22 - Susan Arsht
Well, sometimes they're from other people and sometimes I think they're. We don't even realize where they come from. My junior year in college I went to Israel for six months and Egypt for six months, and out of that experience I kind of developed hot feet, and that's how my much of my career has had some aspect related to going to new places.
Wow, and I think that earlier that would do things with my family that were different, whether it was hiking or skiing or things where you were out in nature, and it was something different and new. And you know, you fall. You fall deep into the snow and that's pretty scary and that could be in your own backyard. And how do you get out of it?
0:08:18 - Annalisa Holcombe
Well, you figure it out and then, before you know, it you're jumping backwards into the snow and it's all over you because you like oh, okay, I know what I can do, I know a way, I know a strategy that's really interesting. So, like one of the strategies you're talking about is in some ways like exercising your fear muscle.
0:08:37 - Susan Arsht
Like in small ways, right, in small ways, and so that it's not so new. I think that one of the things that's helped me along with this is naivete. It's just sometimes jumping in without thinking too much, not knowing that you should be afraid of this Exactly.
I would say more recently you know that was certainly in that year that I was away there were things that afterwards I thought, wow, maybe I should have been afraid to do that hike, I wasn't really prepared. Or maybe I should have been afraid to take a taxi across the desert from Cairo to Jerusalem. You know, that was that, but in the moment it was perfectly fine and I would still say today, at that place and time, it was perfectly fine. I think, more recently, going to graduate school Well, I bet and to get my PhD was something that was scary, it was scary, it was very scary. I would tell you that for the first two years of a four year program, the first four semesters, every time I went into class I wanted to vomit.
0:10:10 - Annalisa Holcombe
Wow.
0:10:10 - Susan Arsht
Because I was so nervous Wow. And I can still, as I say it, I still feel, because everything was so new, everything was so just, even the vocabulary. I had never done anything in a social science before, and so the jargon that everyone else seemed to know, the when it falls off of their lips and you're thinking what Right exactly?
And I have to be able to say it in that same way. I have to understand that. So it clicked. It was a little bit like learning a foreign language. Eventually it clicked and one day I realized, hey, I'm very comfortable, I can do this, and I can, yes, and I can do this.
0:10:59 - Annalisa Holcombe
But I think had I known that it was going to be that hard for that long, I might not have gone in the program and once I started and then I just put my head down Is that how you got through it, because I'm still stubborn and I think being stubborn is a way of handling a lot of things. I will not fail.
0:11:24 - Susan Arsht
Well, my mantra was I'm going to be 52, whether I have a PhD or not. So I think, in general, for me, giving myself deadlines false or not false. I wouldn't do anything without deadlines. So that was my mantra I will be 52, no matter what. Why don't I be 52 having completed this?
0:11:52 - Annalisa Holcombe
So a personal question is what made you decide to go back to school?
0:11:56 - Susan Arsht
When I got my MBA, I never took anything that was an organizational behavior type of class, and the bottom line was that when I was in business, what I realized was we could have everything going in the deal, the pricing, all of the logistics, everything could be just right. But if we didn't have the communication, if we didn't have a sense that we trusted each other, things really things generally didn't work out so well. So I thought, all right, I'm going to do organizational behavior and I started to take a look at it and I went to a couple of universities and talked to people in the departments organizational development, in management, got the applications and they sat on my desk and I kept going back to organizational communication and the communication piece. So finally I went and there are all kinds of reasons that are practical reasons to stick with a management degree. But I went to some of the departments in organizational communication, talked to some folks, got a couple of applications and they were filled out within two weeks.
Wow. So then you knew. So I knew it was and I that's when I said, and I really, I think, wanted to explore what is the reason, what is it about this area that draws you, that draws me, and that is, I think, because I wanted to understand better why. This is what trips up organizations, whether for profit or nonprofit, the communication piece, or what we refer to as communication, which is so many other things. What is it about? That is the. You know, either the positive or the negative.
0:14:01 - Annalisa Holcombe
What did you find out?
0:14:06 - Susan Arsht
Well, I found out some of the things that the Center for Innovative Cultures at Westminster, where I worked. I found out that some of the things that we talk about there, you know that make a difference. That hiring for culture is huge. That the leader in an organization and how the leader approaches the organization is huge. That it doesn't necessarily mean that a culture is bad if an individual isn't a fit. It just means they're not a fit. And so that having people who are good fits for the leader, for the culture and sometimes when the leadership changes, the culture changes and it's possible that there are certain people within the organization it's not a fit anymore.
0:14:56 - Annalisa Holcombe
Right.
0:14:58 - Susan Arsht
And that's okay. That's okay because people it's just that people need to recognize that and a lot of people don't. A lot of people think something's wrong with the leadership or something's wrong with me, and sometimes that's true. You know you have leadership that is unethical, that where you have or you have different values, but a lot of times it's just not a good fit. It's not really somebody's at fault.
0:15:28 - Annalisa Holcombe
Right.
0:15:29 - Susan Arsht
And it's changed. I think it's hard for us to express that because it's I like to blame people.
0:15:40 - Annalisa Holcombe
It's easier than that self-reflection that it takes to really think it through. Yeah, that we're not, we don't fit.
0:15:46 - Susan Arsht
But you know, going back to that, the idea of what are some strategies for fear, I think humor is huge, I think that's right, it loves to be around, especially when you're in an uncomfortable, you know, situation where you know you're on edge. If you can be around somebody who can bring some humor to it in a way that isn't deprecating to you, wow, that makes such a huge difference doesn't it Right?
0:16:15 - Annalisa Holcombe
yeah, I agree.
0:16:17 - Susan Arsht
So I think humor is one I found in my last round of interviewing for jobs that it's occurred to me I'm a much better advocate for other people than I am for myself.
0:16:33 - Annalisa Holcombe
I feel that, I think yeah.
0:16:35 - Susan Arsht
I think this is way above my pay grade, but maybe there's something to do with that, with being women, yeah, yeah. So in my last round of interviewing I made a point of advocating for myself as if I were somebody else, and so I think it really cut into the whole imposter syndrome issue and the fear that I was just putting on an act that I really did. I really know my stuff.
0:17:06 - Annalisa Holcombe
Mm-hmm.
0:17:07 - Susan Arsht
And so when I went in there and I was her, I was she, I was that other person that I was advocating for, I was a really strong advocate for her meaning me, you know. So that makes a lot of sense. So it was, and some people would say that's a Like you had to take yourself away, yes. And some people would say oh, that's a cop out strategy. And I would say you know what?
0:17:32 - Annalisa Holcombe
whatever works, use it. I'm really glad that you brought up imposter syndrome, because I think it's one of our. I think it's a universal fear that people have in their professional lives and I think that it's worth talking about how maybe how ubiquitous it is and some of your strategies for dealing with that.
0:17:54 - Susan Arsht
Well, I think that it is. I think it stops people in a way that it's just a term imposter syndrome. But there are a lot of words, you know, words are meaningful. There are a lot of words that stop people.
0:18:13 - Annalisa Holcombe
Hmm.
0:18:14 - Susan Arsht
And they're different for each of us, and I I love that that's true. So I'm going to give you an example of one that I have seen, both in the classroom and also with people who I really saw this with somebody who is just about to retire and he was looking for something. He was looking for what he's going to do next, because retiring, in his case, doesn't mean not doing anything. He's going to have to do something. He's trying to figure it out so he can smoothly move into the next phase.
And the word I'm talking about is passion. Hmm, what I've seen and I'm not a fan of that word, what-? Because I never felt like I've had a passion for something. I'm curious about things and that's how I go down roads Like I was curious about what. Is it about organizational communication? So curiosity is a better word that fits me.
But I can't tell you how many situations I've been in where a speaker has said you have to be passionate in order to move forward, or what's your passion? You must find your passion and then you'll know. Well, I've asked people in my classes how many of you have a passion and I would say probably not more than one. Fourth, one, sixth, a much, not nearly a large percentage of people will raise their hands and say I have a passion, and I'll always say you know what? Great. I'm not talking to you now, but if you have, absolutely pursue your passion. For those of you who don't stop worrying about it, because I've seen students who won't move forward, well, I don't know what to apply for in a job because I'm not really passionate about a particular area. Well, okay, maybe you're passionate about feeding yourself. I mean you know.
0:20:24 - Annalisa Holcombe
I can assure you, your parents are passionate about you feeding yourself.
0:20:30 - Susan Arsht
So in the case of this person who was retiring, you're very much hiring. He kind of voiced something very similar. He said well, you know, I've looked at a couple of different boards to see if I want to get involved in the organizations and maybe become involved on the board, but I'm not sure if I really have a passion. And I said stop, don't worry about having a passion. What are you curious about? What would you like to know more about? Get involved in those organizations. And sometime later he said to me that was exactly helpful, because I moved forward. I'm now involved in this organization, in this organization, and I'm really passionate about this organization for which I'm going to be the next chair of the board.
0:21:19 - Annalisa Holcombe
And. But the forward momentum occurred because of curiosity rather than passion, Because he stopped getting stuck. Yeah, yeah, I'm not worried, I can totally see that For other people.
0:21:30 - Susan Arsht
I've heard other people say that they are so tired of hearing about values. Make sure you're in a job where people share your values. I don't have a negative sensibility about that word, but so I think that it's worth us exploring how to encourage people old people, young people to think about the buzzwords, the vocabulary that stops them Right and find something else. Or find something else. Or find something else, or find something else.
0:22:12 - Annalisa Holcombe
If this conversation has caught your attention and you want to join in on conversations like this. If this conversation has caught your attention and you want to join in on conversations like this, check out our website at ConnectionCollaborativecom. Welcome back. You're listening to 92,000 Hours and today I am speaking with Susan Arsht. I'm interested in talking about fear from an organizational culture perspective. Like is there such a thing as organizational fear? You know what I mean. Like we talk about it. As individuals, I can have my existential, professional or personal fears, but can organizations have those, and what do you think about that?
0:23:19 - Susan Arsht
I think that there are definite fears. I think also the whole idea of, you know, of organizational fear for me in academia absolutely comes to the forefront where you have colleges that are liberal arts, small liberal arts colleges all over the country that are in fight, and so there's a fear amongst staff, faculty and that gets communicated to students will this college be around?
I mean, I'm a product of an MBA school that has been folded into a larger school. So Thunderbird was folded into ASU, Arizona State University and there was a very large pushback from the alumni still from alumni of Thunderbird that this was terrible. But all of the other alternatives that the board of Thunderbird came up with before that happened were considered terrible too. They just wanted it to remain the same, and no school can today no small college can today, nor should it.
0:24:42 - Annalisa Holcombe
We're in a different world, so I wanted to tie our discussion. We talked about it a little bit, but you've done some work on high quality connections and I'm really interested in whether you'd be like. I'm interested in you talking a little bit about any of your ideas or your thoughts related to fear and our need to be connected, how that works generally, like how both personally and professionally maybe. How can fear get in the way of high quality connections?
0:25:17 - Susan Arsht
I think it is not uncommon for people, when they are afraid, to fold into themselves both physically and psychologically, yeah, and that fear extends to being afraid to share the fear. And I think that some of that is self-preservation and learned self-preservation and some of that is just not recognizing that it's more common whatever you're afraid of, it's not uncommon for other people to be afraid of it as well. So I think that's part of it from an individual level. And then I think that I think that people have, once they express something, others will react to it in different ways, not always positive, but if they're with somebody where they trust them, then there is a certain level of humanity that they'll receive from another person, even if it's not to say I agree with you but even if it's to say that must be really hard for you to feel that fear.
0:26:38 - Annalisa Holcombe
Yeah, I think that's absolutely true.
0:26:42 - Susan Arsht
And what can we do about that Can?
0:26:44 - Annalisa Holcombe
you imagine the difference? If you're, you know there are big issues at professionally, at work or something. If you were able to have conversations with colleagues or even your boss that were like that would be a much. You could probably work it through yourself anyway, but it would just be helpful to have other people.
0:27:08 - Susan Arsht
I think a lot of people do. I think a lot of people do. Now, of course, if that's your only focus is I'm focused on the fear there's a certain point where, with their help or with other people's help outside of the organization, you've got to be able to move on it and move into a place where you can be a contributor. Sometimes I wish that we would think of ourselves, in both home and work, as contributors rather than workers.
0:27:42 - Annalisa Holcombe
Oh, I love that. Tell me about that. What do you mean?
0:27:47 - Susan Arsht
Well, I think it's language that the center uses and something that I appreciate, I think, if we think about where are we contributing, and I think of it in, I think now in terms of how can I contribute and when I'm proud, I'm proud when I contribute. So, going back to your very first question, I would say that something that I'm proud is if I can identify where have I or where can I contribute, and that's, I guess, the making a difference. And even if contributing is doing something very simple so somebody else doesn't taking my dishes to the cafeteria window, so somebody doesn't have to come out and pick them up, that sounds silly, but you know it's contributing.
And I think, if you think more in terms of how can I contribute instead of how can I keep my job or how can I, it's almost like a growth and scarcity mindset. Yes, exactly.
0:28:56 - Annalisa Holcombe
I spoke at an event earlier this year and talked to people within the higher education industry about change. It was great because we learned that what I had been experiencing in terms of change we are definitely not alone. There are all sorts of levels of change and everybody's experiencing it, and they're experiencing it all the time and they're experiencing it more often. But I related to them something that I had heard recently in a retreat I had gone to. That was fabulous and the person who was talking about change generally and he said if I could give you any advice, it would be as you go through change, as your leaders. If you were to, if I could give you advice, it would be to always communicate this way Respect the past, be honest about the present and project hope for the future. It was really powerful for everybody there going. Oh, it gives me some language that might help me with this tug of war.
0:29:59 - Susan Arsht
Well, I think that resonates for me from the interviews that I did with people's best work experiences, where one of the categories that came up that was new was positive spiral, and positive spiral actually comes from a term that's used in psychology called negative spiral. So if we think about fear being communicated from one person to another person, to another person, and it's so contagious.
Yes, it's a spiral, and I'm moving my arms in a circular fashion. It's the spiral that goes, that just takes a life, takes on a life of its own. On the other hand, in people's best work experiences, there seemed to be this, this kind of activity that was beyond just the individual, and so we called it positive spiral. It's so cool, and so it was this idea, and I think that this idea that hope for the future is where positive spiral can come in. It doesn't mean that you have to sit with every single person. It means that, if you generate it, there's a sensibility, there's an emotional lift that can be there.
0:31:15 - Annalisa Holcombe
People believe it.
0:31:17 - Susan Arsht
You know they have to believe and they have to trust. Yes, so three things that this person mentioned, of respecting the past, of being truthful about the present and of expressing hope for the future. I think all of those are trust generating.
0:31:38 - Annalisa Holcombe
Yeah, yeah, I agree with you Absolutely. So interesting. So one of the things that I wanted to make sure that we talked about. As you know, I am personally very passionate about the role of mentors in our lives and I'm wondering if you have had any particular mentor in your life that was important to you, and why. What lessons did you learn? What made that mentor so important in your life?
0:32:03 - Susan Arsht
So it's interesting because mentorship falls into the category of positive spiral.
0:32:08 - Annalisa Holcombe
Oh, lovely.
And was in people's best work experiences, both being the mentor and the mentee, and many times somebody who's had a very good mentee experience makes a point of becoming a mentor, what advice would you give to younger you about how to handle fear, the fears that you knew, that now you know came up what you know what I mean, what if and I'm thinking that in terms of our listeners as well like, what kind of advice would you give them about, about particularly professional fear? But I think that, but this fear exists in our lives, don't?
0:32:47 - Susan Arsht
be afraid to see things as they are. I walk around with rose-colored glasses and it's a really nice place to be in general but sometimes my gut tells me something, but my rose-colored glasses tell me something else.
So don't be afraid to see for yourself, for yourself when things aren't a good fit, or don't be afraid to speak up when something that you don't think should occur is occurring, and I know and again I have spoken up when it's the big, big, big stuff, but even sometimes the medium or little stuff. Speaking up when it's little might be helpful, because then it might not become so big.
0:33:42 - Annalisa Holcombe
Yeah, that's great advice and it's a great way to exercise the fear muscle and to also be true to yourself in some ways 100%.
Thank you to Susan for her incredible insight. If you want to learn more about Susan and her work, connect with her on LinkedIn or find her publications on Google Scholar. Next week, I will be speaking to a longtime friend and mentor of my own, jim Carter. Jim is a lawyer, a certified environmental planner and a public administrator. Jim and I will be discussing vulnerability and how to practice it in your work and your personal life. Join us next week, as always. Thank you for listening to 92,000 Hours. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a review. We really appreciate your support. If you're interested in integrating the personal and professional through authentic conversation, just like you heard on our episode today, please check out our work at Connection Collaborative. You can find us at ConnectionCollaborative.com or send me an email at Annalisa@ConnectionCollaborative.com. Thank you and see you next week on 92,000 Hours. 92,000 Hours is made possible by Connection Collaborative. This episode was produced and edited by Brianna Steggell. Lexie Banks is our marketing director and I'm your host, Annalisa Holcombe.
0:00:01 - Annalisa Holcombe
Did you know that the average human spends 92,000 hours at work during their lifetime? That's more than we spend eating, cleaning, driving, watching TV or even surfing the internet? In fact, work is what we do most. It comes second only to sleeping. Welcome to 92,000 hours, the podcast that believes in the integration of life and work.
I'm your host, Annalisa Holcomb. Before we begin, I wanted to tell you a quick story about why this podcast is so personal to me. I began practicing law at age 26 and learned many valuable lessons, including that I was deeply unhappy at work. Although I was on a path that looked like traditional success, I realized that I needed to quit my job in order to align myself with my passion and purpose. Now I am dedicated to making sure all of our 92,000 hours at work are spent well instead of simply spent. How do we construct a working world that values and accommodates our humanity? How do we construct a life that is not separate from, but fueled by, the purpose we find in our work? In this podcast, we will explore those questions and more. In each episode, I will speak to someone that demonstrates meaning, passion and purpose in their work. Join me in discovering what happens when we bring our whole selves to our work, schools and communities.
This week, I am joined by Dr Susan Arsht. Susan is a professor of management at the Bill and Veeve Gore School of Business at Westminster College and previously served as the executive director of the Center for Innovative Cultures. Susan received her PhD in intercultural communication from the University of New Mexico. Her dissertation focused on quality connections, positive relationships and positive organizational climate. In the spirit of the Halloween season, we will be talking about fear. Of course, I don't mean zombies or ghosts, but instead the fear we encounter at work and in our personal lives Fear of change or taking that next step. Susan shares with us her strategies for conquering our fears and stepping out of our comfort zones. Let's jump in, alright. So if you remove any reference to work, school, sports, volunteerism, church activity all of those things that we think of when we talk about success often, take all those out of your head. What is your greatest accomplishment or what is it that you're most proud of about yourself as a human being?
0:02:55 - Susan Arsht
This may be a sideways answer, I'm not sure, but what it reminded me of is an offhand comment I made to a colleague years ago, which was I'm my best self when I'm on the road, and I think what that speaks to is that when things are different, when there is an environment that's new, when I'm going to another country which I had the opportunity and the great luck to be in a role in work and also by choice, privately to travel to many places when things get a little crazy, that's when my best self comes out. And when things get and when, again new, the first time, I do something in some ways, I think I do it the best and I don't speak on my feet, but I act on my feet. I think is what I would say.
0:04:06 - Annalisa Holcombe
What we had talked about in terms of an overarching discussion. Subject today is fear.
0:04:13 - Susan Arsht
I think for some of us, fear is a motivator. Ooh, let's talk about that. And I certainly believe that's true for me. I also made the. Maybe I talked too much because I made the. I made it again an offhand comment to my son some years ago when I was talking about going overseas on just a personal trip and I said I'm a little nervous about going on this trip. You know I'm putting it together for our family, etc. But I said you know, so that's when I know, when I'm afraid to go on a trip, something I love to do, that's when it's time to go. Ooh, and there have been several times since then when he has brought that up, when I said, oh, I'm nervous, or oh, I'm afraid, or oh, this makes me uncomfortable.
Well then, mom, it's time to do it. So I think that the idea of fear keeping you in one spot and not moving forward or not addressing you don't even have to address it sometimes you can. Sometimes it's go around it and get there. Now, of course, we're not talking about the kind of fear like I'm trapped in a corner by somebody that I don't know, or just the absolutely terrible, negative fear that is where fight or flight really is important Right exactly there's a fire there's, you know you're being chased by somebody. That's not the kind of fear that I'm talking about.
0:05:55 - Annalisa Holcombe
You're just more like existential.
0:05:58 - Susan Arsht
Yes, it's more like the fear that you know if you moved forward, something new would happen, but you're afraid to do it. That's the kind of fear and something new might not be good for not life threatening, not good but it might not be.
0:06:17 - Annalisa Holcombe
You might find out.
0:06:17 - Susan Arsht
You don't like what you're getting into. I think learning what we don't like to do or what we're not good at is actually just as helpful as what we like to do and what we're good at, and the only way is to try it. Yeah, and so that's what. That's the kind of fear, and I think there are strategies. So I don't know, are there people that don't ever fear? I don't know.
0:06:45 - Annalisa Holcombe
That would be. I would be surprised if that's the case. I mean, maybe they don't tell us. But I would be surprised if there are people that don't, and I might be a little afraid of them.
0:06:55 - Susan Arsht
Exactly? And is it about realizing what strategies work for you to get beyond that fear or to work through that fear or to recognize where it comes from, but having some strategies that can help.
0:07:16 - Annalisa Holcombe
So do you have any? Have you learned some over the course of your? And how have you learned them?
0:07:22 - Susan Arsht
Well, sometimes they're from other people and sometimes I think they're. We don't even realize where they come from. My junior year in college I went to Israel for six months and Egypt for six months, and out of that experience I kind of developed hot feet, and that's how my much of my career has had some aspect related to going to new places.
Wow, and I think that earlier that would do things with my family that were different, whether it was hiking or skiing or things where you were out in nature, and it was something different and new. And you know, you fall. You fall deep into the snow and that's pretty scary and that could be in your own backyard. And how do you get out of it?
0:08:18 - Annalisa Holcombe
Well, you figure it out and then, before you know, it you're jumping backwards into the snow and it's all over you because you like oh, okay, I know what I can do, I know a way, I know a strategy that's really interesting. So, like one of the strategies you're talking about is in some ways like exercising your fear muscle.
0:08:37 - Susan Arsht
Like in small ways, right, in small ways, and so that it's not so new. I think that one of the things that's helped me along with this is naivete. It's just sometimes jumping in without thinking too much, not knowing that you should be afraid of this Exactly.
I would say more recently you know that was certainly in that year that I was away there were things that afterwards I thought, wow, maybe I should have been afraid to do that hike, I wasn't really prepared. Or maybe I should have been afraid to take a taxi across the desert from Cairo to Jerusalem. You know, that was that, but in the moment it was perfectly fine and I would still say today, at that place and time, it was perfectly fine. I think, more recently, going to graduate school Well, I bet and to get my PhD was something that was scary, it was scary, it was very scary. I would tell you that for the first two years of a four year program, the first four semesters, every time I went into class I wanted to vomit.
0:10:10 - Annalisa Holcombe
Wow.
0:10:10 - Susan Arsht
Because I was so nervous Wow. And I can still, as I say it, I still feel, because everything was so new, everything was so just, even the vocabulary. I had never done anything in a social science before, and so the jargon that everyone else seemed to know, the when it falls off of their lips and you're thinking what Right exactly?
And I have to be able to say it in that same way. I have to understand that. So it clicked. It was a little bit like learning a foreign language. Eventually it clicked and one day I realized, hey, I'm very comfortable, I can do this, and I can, yes, and I can do this.
0:10:59 - Annalisa Holcombe
But I think had I known that it was going to be that hard for that long, I might not have gone in the program and once I started and then I just put my head down Is that how you got through it, because I'm still stubborn and I think being stubborn is a way of handling a lot of things. I will not fail.
0:11:24 - Susan Arsht
Well, my mantra was I'm going to be 52, whether I have a PhD or not. So I think, in general, for me, giving myself deadlines false or not false. I wouldn't do anything without deadlines. So that was my mantra I will be 52, no matter what. Why don't I be 52 having completed this?
0:11:52 - Annalisa Holcombe
So a personal question is what made you decide to go back to school?
0:11:56 - Susan Arsht
When I got my MBA, I never took anything that was an organizational behavior type of class, and the bottom line was that when I was in business, what I realized was we could have everything going in the deal, the pricing, all of the logistics, everything could be just right. But if we didn't have the communication, if we didn't have a sense that we trusted each other, things really things generally didn't work out so well. So I thought, all right, I'm going to do organizational behavior and I started to take a look at it and I went to a couple of universities and talked to people in the departments organizational development, in management, got the applications and they sat on my desk and I kept going back to organizational communication and the communication piece. So finally I went and there are all kinds of reasons that are practical reasons to stick with a management degree. But I went to some of the departments in organizational communication, talked to some folks, got a couple of applications and they were filled out within two weeks.
Wow. So then you knew. So I knew it was and I that's when I said, and I really, I think, wanted to explore what is the reason, what is it about this area that draws you, that draws me, and that is, I think, because I wanted to understand better why. This is what trips up organizations, whether for profit or nonprofit, the communication piece, or what we refer to as communication, which is so many other things. What is it about? That is the. You know, either the positive or the negative.
0:14:01 - Annalisa Holcombe
What did you find out?
0:14:06 - Susan Arsht
Well, I found out some of the things that the Center for Innovative Cultures at Westminster, where I worked. I found out that some of the things that we talk about there, you know that make a difference. That hiring for culture is huge. That the leader in an organization and how the leader approaches the organization is huge. That it doesn't necessarily mean that a culture is bad if an individual isn't a fit. It just means they're not a fit. And so that having people who are good fits for the leader, for the culture and sometimes when the leadership changes, the culture changes and it's possible that there are certain people within the organization it's not a fit anymore.
0:14:56 - Annalisa Holcombe
Right.
0:14:58 - Susan Arsht
And that's okay. That's okay because people it's just that people need to recognize that and a lot of people don't. A lot of people think something's wrong with the leadership or something's wrong with me, and sometimes that's true. You know you have leadership that is unethical, that where you have or you have different values, but a lot of times it's just not a good fit. It's not really somebody's at fault.
0:15:28 - Annalisa Holcombe
Right.
0:15:29 - Susan Arsht
And it's changed. I think it's hard for us to express that because it's I like to blame people.
0:15:40 - Annalisa Holcombe
It's easier than that self-reflection that it takes to really think it through. Yeah, that we're not, we don't fit.
0:15:46 - Susan Arsht
But you know, going back to that, the idea of what are some strategies for fear, I think humor is huge, I think that's right, it loves to be around, especially when you're in an uncomfortable, you know, situation where you know you're on edge. If you can be around somebody who can bring some humor to it in a way that isn't deprecating to you, wow, that makes such a huge difference doesn't it Right?
0:16:15 - Annalisa Holcombe
yeah, I agree.
0:16:17 - Susan Arsht
So I think humor is one I found in my last round of interviewing for jobs that it's occurred to me I'm a much better advocate for other people than I am for myself.
0:16:33 - Annalisa Holcombe
I feel that, I think yeah.
0:16:35 - Susan Arsht
I think this is way above my pay grade, but maybe there's something to do with that, with being women, yeah, yeah. So in my last round of interviewing I made a point of advocating for myself as if I were somebody else, and so I think it really cut into the whole imposter syndrome issue and the fear that I was just putting on an act that I really did. I really know my stuff.
0:17:06 - Annalisa Holcombe
Mm-hmm.
0:17:07 - Susan Arsht
And so when I went in there and I was her, I was she, I was that other person that I was advocating for, I was a really strong advocate for her meaning me, you know. So that makes a lot of sense. So it was, and some people would say that's a Like you had to take yourself away, yes. And some people would say oh, that's a cop out strategy. And I would say you know what?
0:17:32 - Annalisa Holcombe
whatever works, use it. I'm really glad that you brought up imposter syndrome, because I think it's one of our. I think it's a universal fear that people have in their professional lives and I think that it's worth talking about how maybe how ubiquitous it is and some of your strategies for dealing with that.
0:17:54 - Susan Arsht
Well, I think that it is. I think it stops people in a way that it's just a term imposter syndrome. But there are a lot of words, you know, words are meaningful. There are a lot of words that stop people.
0:18:13 - Annalisa Holcombe
Hmm.
0:18:14 - Susan Arsht
And they're different for each of us, and I I love that that's true. So I'm going to give you an example of one that I have seen, both in the classroom and also with people who I really saw this with somebody who is just about to retire and he was looking for something. He was looking for what he's going to do next, because retiring, in his case, doesn't mean not doing anything. He's going to have to do something. He's trying to figure it out so he can smoothly move into the next phase.
And the word I'm talking about is passion. Hmm, what I've seen and I'm not a fan of that word, what-? Because I never felt like I've had a passion for something. I'm curious about things and that's how I go down roads Like I was curious about what. Is it about organizational communication? So curiosity is a better word that fits me.
But I can't tell you how many situations I've been in where a speaker has said you have to be passionate in order to move forward, or what's your passion? You must find your passion and then you'll know. Well, I've asked people in my classes how many of you have a passion and I would say probably not more than one. Fourth, one, sixth, a much, not nearly a large percentage of people will raise their hands and say I have a passion, and I'll always say you know what? Great. I'm not talking to you now, but if you have, absolutely pursue your passion. For those of you who don't stop worrying about it, because I've seen students who won't move forward, well, I don't know what to apply for in a job because I'm not really passionate about a particular area. Well, okay, maybe you're passionate about feeding yourself. I mean you know.
0:20:24 - Annalisa Holcombe
I can assure you, your parents are passionate about you feeding yourself.
0:20:30 - Susan Arsht
So in the case of this person who was retiring, you're very much hiring. He kind of voiced something very similar. He said well, you know, I've looked at a couple of different boards to see if I want to get involved in the organizations and maybe become involved on the board, but I'm not sure if I really have a passion. And I said stop, don't worry about having a passion. What are you curious about? What would you like to know more about? Get involved in those organizations. And sometime later he said to me that was exactly helpful, because I moved forward. I'm now involved in this organization, in this organization, and I'm really passionate about this organization for which I'm going to be the next chair of the board.
0:21:19 - Annalisa Holcombe
And. But the forward momentum occurred because of curiosity rather than passion, Because he stopped getting stuck. Yeah, yeah, I'm not worried, I can totally see that For other people.
0:21:30 - Susan Arsht
I've heard other people say that they are so tired of hearing about values. Make sure you're in a job where people share your values. I don't have a negative sensibility about that word, but so I think that it's worth us exploring how to encourage people old people, young people to think about the buzzwords, the vocabulary that stops them Right and find something else. Or find something else. Or find something else, or find something else.
0:22:12 - Annalisa Holcombe
If this conversation has caught your attention and you want to join in on conversations like this. If this conversation has caught your attention and you want to join in on conversations like this, check out our website at ConnectionCollaborativecom. Welcome back. You're listening to 92,000 Hours and today I am speaking with Susan Arsht. I'm interested in talking about fear from an organizational culture perspective. Like is there such a thing as organizational fear? You know what I mean. Like we talk about it. As individuals, I can have my existential, professional or personal fears, but can organizations have those, and what do you think about that?
0:23:19 - Susan Arsht
I think that there are definite fears. I think also the whole idea of, you know, of organizational fear for me in academia absolutely comes to the forefront where you have colleges that are liberal arts, small liberal arts colleges all over the country that are in fight, and so there's a fear amongst staff, faculty and that gets communicated to students will this college be around?
I mean, I'm a product of an MBA school that has been folded into a larger school. So Thunderbird was folded into ASU, Arizona State University and there was a very large pushback from the alumni still from alumni of Thunderbird that this was terrible. But all of the other alternatives that the board of Thunderbird came up with before that happened were considered terrible too. They just wanted it to remain the same, and no school can today no small college can today, nor should it.
0:24:42 - Annalisa Holcombe
We're in a different world, so I wanted to tie our discussion. We talked about it a little bit, but you've done some work on high quality connections and I'm really interested in whether you'd be like. I'm interested in you talking a little bit about any of your ideas or your thoughts related to fear and our need to be connected, how that works generally, like how both personally and professionally maybe. How can fear get in the way of high quality connections?
0:25:17 - Susan Arsht
I think it is not uncommon for people, when they are afraid, to fold into themselves both physically and psychologically, yeah, and that fear extends to being afraid to share the fear. And I think that some of that is self-preservation and learned self-preservation and some of that is just not recognizing that it's more common whatever you're afraid of, it's not uncommon for other people to be afraid of it as well. So I think that's part of it from an individual level. And then I think that I think that people have, once they express something, others will react to it in different ways, not always positive, but if they're with somebody where they trust them, then there is a certain level of humanity that they'll receive from another person, even if it's not to say I agree with you but even if it's to say that must be really hard for you to feel that fear.
0:26:38 - Annalisa Holcombe
Yeah, I think that's absolutely true.
0:26:42 - Susan Arsht
And what can we do about that Can?
0:26:44 - Annalisa Holcombe
you imagine the difference? If you're, you know there are big issues at professionally, at work or something. If you were able to have conversations with colleagues or even your boss that were like that would be a much. You could probably work it through yourself anyway, but it would just be helpful to have other people.
0:27:08 - Susan Arsht
I think a lot of people do. I think a lot of people do. Now, of course, if that's your only focus is I'm focused on the fear there's a certain point where, with their help or with other people's help outside of the organization, you've got to be able to move on it and move into a place where you can be a contributor. Sometimes I wish that we would think of ourselves, in both home and work, as contributors rather than workers.
0:27:42 - Annalisa Holcombe
Oh, I love that. Tell me about that. What do you mean?
0:27:47 - Susan Arsht
Well, I think it's language that the center uses and something that I appreciate, I think, if we think about where are we contributing, and I think of it in, I think now in terms of how can I contribute and when I'm proud, I'm proud when I contribute. So, going back to your very first question, I would say that something that I'm proud is if I can identify where have I or where can I contribute, and that's, I guess, the making a difference. And even if contributing is doing something very simple so somebody else doesn't taking my dishes to the cafeteria window, so somebody doesn't have to come out and pick them up, that sounds silly, but you know it's contributing.
And I think, if you think more in terms of how can I contribute instead of how can I keep my job or how can I, it's almost like a growth and scarcity mindset. Yes, exactly.
0:28:56 - Annalisa Holcombe
I spoke at an event earlier this year and talked to people within the higher education industry about change. It was great because we learned that what I had been experiencing in terms of change we are definitely not alone. There are all sorts of levels of change and everybody's experiencing it, and they're experiencing it all the time and they're experiencing it more often. But I related to them something that I had heard recently in a retreat I had gone to. That was fabulous and the person who was talking about change generally and he said if I could give you any advice, it would be as you go through change, as your leaders. If you were to, if I could give you advice, it would be to always communicate this way Respect the past, be honest about the present and project hope for the future. It was really powerful for everybody there going. Oh, it gives me some language that might help me with this tug of war.
0:29:59 - Susan Arsht
Well, I think that resonates for me from the interviews that I did with people's best work experiences, where one of the categories that came up that was new was positive spiral, and positive spiral actually comes from a term that's used in psychology called negative spiral. So if we think about fear being communicated from one person to another person, to another person, and it's so contagious.
Yes, it's a spiral, and I'm moving my arms in a circular fashion. It's the spiral that goes, that just takes a life, takes on a life of its own. On the other hand, in people's best work experiences, there seemed to be this, this kind of activity that was beyond just the individual, and so we called it positive spiral. It's so cool, and so it was this idea, and I think that this idea that hope for the future is where positive spiral can come in. It doesn't mean that you have to sit with every single person. It means that, if you generate it, there's a sensibility, there's an emotional lift that can be there.
0:31:15 - Annalisa Holcombe
People believe it.
0:31:17 - Susan Arsht
You know they have to believe and they have to trust. Yes, so three things that this person mentioned, of respecting the past, of being truthful about the present and of expressing hope for the future. I think all of those are trust generating.
0:31:38 - Annalisa Holcombe
Yeah, yeah, I agree with you Absolutely. So interesting. So one of the things that I wanted to make sure that we talked about. As you know, I am personally very passionate about the role of mentors in our lives and I'm wondering if you have had any particular mentor in your life that was important to you, and why. What lessons did you learn? What made that mentor so important in your life?
0:32:03 - Susan Arsht
So it's interesting because mentorship falls into the category of positive spiral.
0:32:08 - Annalisa Holcombe
Oh, lovely.
And was in people's best work experiences, both being the mentor and the mentee, and many times somebody who's had a very good mentee experience makes a point of becoming a mentor, what advice would you give to younger you about how to handle fear, the fears that you knew, that now you know came up what you know what I mean, what if and I'm thinking that in terms of our listeners as well like, what kind of advice would you give them about, about particularly professional fear? But I think that, but this fear exists in our lives, don't?
0:32:47 - Susan Arsht
be afraid to see things as they are. I walk around with rose-colored glasses and it's a really nice place to be in general but sometimes my gut tells me something, but my rose-colored glasses tell me something else.
So don't be afraid to see for yourself, for yourself when things aren't a good fit, or don't be afraid to speak up when something that you don't think should occur is occurring, and I know and again I have spoken up when it's the big, big, big stuff, but even sometimes the medium or little stuff. Speaking up when it's little might be helpful, because then it might not become so big.
0:33:42 - Annalisa Holcombe
Yeah, that's great advice and it's a great way to exercise the fear muscle and to also be true to yourself in some ways 100%.
Thank you to Susan for her incredible insight. If you want to learn more about Susan and her work, connect with her on LinkedIn or find her publications on Google Scholar. Next week, I will be speaking to a longtime friend and mentor of my own, jim Carter. Jim is a lawyer, a certified environmental planner and a public administrator. Jim and I will be discussing vulnerability and how to practice it in your work and your personal life. Join us next week, as always. Thank you for listening to 92,000 Hours. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a review. We really appreciate your support. If you're interested in integrating the personal and professional through authentic conversation, just like you heard on our episode today, please check out our work at Connection Collaborative. You can find us at ConnectionCollaborative.com or send me an email at Annalisa@ConnectionCollaborative.com. Thank you and see you next week on 92,000 Hours. 92,000 Hours is made possible by Connection Collaborative. This episode was produced and edited by Brianna Steggell. Lexie Banks is our marketing director and I'm your host, Annalisa Holcombe.