Transcript
Annalisa Holcombe:
The average human spends 92,000 hours at work during their lifetime. It's more than we spend eating, cleaning, driving, watching TV, or surfing the internet. It's even more time than we spend with the people we love. In fact, work is what we do most. It comes second only to sleeping.

Annalisa Holcombe:
How do we construct a working world that values and accommodates our humanity? How do we construct a life that is not separate from but is fueled by the purpose we find in our work? In this podcast, we will explore those questions and more.

Annalisa Holcombe:
This season, we're featuring our change makers, people working in the nonprofit and fundraising industries. The original meaning of the word philanthropy is to love humankind. What does it mean to work on loving humankind for your living? What are the aspects of their work applied to all of us? What are the joys and the challenges? And what can we take away from these folks about how to make a difference in the world.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Hello, everyone. Welcome back to 92,000 Hours. We have now reached the halfway point in our changemaker season. We've heard from incredible changemakers who are making a difference in the world of nonprofit with fundraising and philanthropy. And in this episode, I am so excited to welcome my friend, Caitlyn Brazill. Caitlyn is an incredible changemaker. She is the chief revenue officer at Per Scholas.

Annalisa Holcombe:
And if you don't know yet what Per Scholas does, you really need to check them out. Their mission is to advance economic equity through rigorous training for tech careers and to connect skilled talent to leading businesses. What they do is they provide no cost training to individuals with access to incredible employer partners as well. And Caitlyn is responsible for leading the strategic development and execution of Per Scholas’ sustainability model that includes both earned and raised revenue and leading a comprehensive communication strategy for the organization.

Annalisa Holcombe:
It's an incredible organization. I have been amazed by the work that they do. And there's a lot of information out there for you to learn more about them. But until then, we're going to talk to Caitlyn. She has more than 20 years of experience in the public and nonprofit sector. She was an adjunct professor of public administration at NYU from 2005 to 2018 and she developed and taught a graduate level course on wealth and inequality.

Annalisa Holcombe:
She was even named one of the top 100 women leaders in New York City by women we admire in 2021. She earned her masters in public administration at NYU and she lives in Brooklyn, New York with her husband and her three children and today we are talking with Caitlyn Brazil about dignity.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So I am so excited to welcome Caitlyn Brazil to this podcast because Caitlyn is someone that I have particularly enjoyed meeting, listening to, and watching in action. Caitlyn, you are good at your job and also incredibly interesting as a human. So this gives me this opportunity for me to have a conversation with you that I probably wouldn't be able to have in any other circumstance. So I'm very excited about it.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Really happy to have you on the podcast and thought I would open with my main opening question I ask everyone, which is always a little uncomfortable and the way we get authentic and real right up front. So if you don't count work or school or Sometimes I even say things like church, but it could or sports like the things that we do. If you can talk to me about the person that you are, what are you most proud of about yourself as a human?

Caitlyn Brazill:
First, let me just say, Annalisa, I am beyond flattered that you think that I am both good at my job and interesting to talk to. I love both of those things. And the feeling is really mutual there. One, I love this question and I love the concept that, you know, you could pick apart the things that you do to whatever is left is the person that you are, right? And so as I thought about your question, I really kind of took it in two directions.

Caitlyn Brazill:
One of them is fundamentally a thing that I do, but it's really important, right? So the thing that I do that is not work, that is not sports that is not a hobby is I'm the mom of three amazing kids and I'm not gonna say the proudest thing that I have is like being a mom like you know frankly that becoming a mom thing is not that hard it's not that easy for everyone but that is that is not it I think what I am really proud of I'm not just a mom I also have this amazing partner who has like a real co-parent in life.

Caitlyn Brazill:
And between the two of us, we are on this path to producing these remarkably both empathetic and resilient humans who are actually really independent, think critically about the world, and I look at them and think, oh, that's the person that I want to be more often than I think oh I'm so proud of this person that I've helped to make. And like that is a really good day.

Annalisa Holcombe:
That is so amazing. I say stories like that about my oldest daughter when people would say to me um you know tell me about your kids I'd say like oh I just want to be her when I grow up. She's so amazing if I could be her that would be amazing right Right, and the joy of having kids who interest you and you want to be around and that you get to watch become, right? Like just become…

Caitlyn Brazill:
Well, and also challenge you and ask you really good questions, right? Like, and often at these very random times, right? So this weekend, we're all driving to the beach and somehow or another get into a conversation where my white son is asking me, "Do you think it's wrong if you understand what white privilege is, but you recognize that you're sort of taking advantage of it?" He's not. I thought, "Okay, well, this is what we're going to talk about instead of singing songs on the way to the beach."

Annalisa Holcombe:
Like, okay great it's on love your kid I love your kid and holy cow then this makes what we're about to talk about even more interesting because maybe you talk about this in your family dynamic I don't know um so when we were talking about what would be the theme of the conversation that we would have today and I put out a few ideas and you came back with I think that I'd like to talk about dignity. I was over the moon.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So I don't even know how to talk about it really. And don't you think that maybe this is not the case for you, but for me, dignity is such an interesting word and concept because it's one of those things that we don't talk about enough. And maybe we don't even know how to define it, but we know it mostly by when it's not there than when it is. I don't know.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I'm really interested in like, A, why did you choose this and B, how do you define it?

Caitlyn Brazill:
Okay, I'll start with the why did I choose this. So just before you reached out to me, Annalisa, I was at a conference week before and it was one of these events where there's a ton of different sessions. And to be totally honest, I went to one session and it was totally full. And so I just hopped into the room next door. It was not actually the place I intended to go. And there was this really interesting gentleman whose name I'm forgetting right now. I'll get it for you later, who was doing the talk on, he had developed an index that ranged from dignity to contempt and was essentially talking about how you could disagree or even describe people with whom you have disagreements on this range from treating them with full human dignity and like, let me be clear, treating them with full human dignity.

Caitlyn Brazill:
The example was, you know, Archbishop Desmond Tutu being able to fully empathize with people who had tortured his friends and comrades, right? So, you know, true human dignity in ways that are really difficult to contempt, which is essentially vilifying your opponents. And what was so striking about this, and honestly, it's really stuck with me over the last couple of months, is, he gave these really, he gave examples, he excerpted speeches from people, real people, people I admire, and then asked us to rank this on the index and to come up with, okay, where does this really sit?

Caitlyn Brazill:
And it was alarming how frequently it was, you know, a two or a three, like as close to complete vilification of your opponent, of someone who disagreed with you as possible. And I thought, you know, this is a real problem. This is not the way that I want to teach my children to think about disagreements, to think about different points of view, think about other people in our country, right?

Caitlyn Brazill:
And so how you talk and the words that you choose in describing disagreement are really, really important there, right? The other piece of why dignity is so important to me is, and again, I hadn't really thought about it until I sat in the room and had this conversation, is that, you know, Annalisa, your question, stripping out work, who are you? Right? The reason you have to start with that preface is because so much of who we are and how we are seen by the outside world is actually our work, our occupation. And so the time that I spend every day at Per Scholas and honestly, across my career, the work that I've done in economic mobility is really intertwined with dignity.

Caitlyn Brazill:
Being treated with dignity is a huge part, it's a powerful force in why people choose the career paths that they choose, in how people feel about their work and what they do every day. And there's no question in the world that we should be treating people with dignity regardless of their occupation. I don't think there's anybody who would say out loud that there's something different.

Caitlyn Brazill:
But the reality of how people are seen as being worthy of honor or respect, which was the dictionary definition of dignity that I looked up is really often a function of your work and your occupations.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Okay, so love this. You and I talked a little bit about things that I'm doing right now. And you'll find this hilarious that one of the one of the organizations I'm working with and talking to is the Dignity Index. And so bet it was Tim Shriver who was speaking.

Caitlyn Brazill:
Yes, thank you. Oh my goodness, Emily said that's amazing. I'm delighted that you're working with him. I embarrassed that I forgot his name, but he's doing a really good job.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Yes, and what I love about that, here's a cool story about it, is that… Here's Tim Shriver who comes from the Kennedy family who's so known for their democratic work, right, that they're liberal leanings. And then right next to him working on this is a woman named Tammy Piper who is from Utah and is served as the education leader for the Republican governor and has been a Republican her entire life.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So the fact that the two people leading it are from like a Democrat and a Republican, and they're both excited. I mean, it's just a good story to that. I think people are hungry for dignity. And second, I'm really interested in, when you talk about, I think you hit on something that's so important about our occupation and how that aligns with dignity. And I'm interested in how you might think about that in terms of the work you do at Per Scholas. How do you consider your work part of, I don't know, infusing the world with more dignity? How do you move that forward at work?

Caitlyn Brazill:
One of the things that is really important to recognize, again, about dignity as a concept, right, is that for many people, I think, dignity is ingrained, right? They grow up in middle or upper-class household. They have access to schools at sports and youth development activities. They build confidence and somebody's worried about whether they're building confidence. And so they believe they are worthy of good jobs, good housing, good neighborhoods, and they get a feedback mechanism around them that validates, yes, you are worthy of this, right?

Caitlyn Brazill:
But for frankly, the majority of Americans, dignity is harder fought. It's more complicated. Most people grow up and see their parents talk down to, or they experience teachers or guidance counselors that don't think that they can make it, or they work in jobs that leave them feeling exhausted and unfulfilled and unsure that they can advance or that they should be advancing, right?

Caitlyn Brazill:
So they may have families and communities that lift them up and make them feel good, but being treated with dignity outside of the people who love you and who you're connected to becomes really, I think when I think about the impact of our work at Per Scholas, and maybe just a quick commercial on Per Scholas here, right, we've, Per Scholas has been around for almost 30 years, it'll be our 30th anniversary next year. We've helped over that time period about 25,000 people launch careers in technology.

Caitlyn Brazill:
And when we do that, we help people unlock their potential. They help people feel they deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. And frankly, the way that we do that is we set the table and people do all the hard work. We create tuition-free opportunities for advancement. We work with employers to understand what is the talent that you're looking for and how can we provide the education and skills that people will need to fill those roles that you are looking to fill.

Caitlyn Brazill:
We have a rigorous approach. It is very difficult to make it through Per Scholas. It's a full-time immersive education that combines technical skills and business professional skills. And we have partnerships with employers who are seeking that tech talent and who recognize that the pools that they are fishing in today are missing tremendously talented people who could thrive in their businesses.

Caitlyn Brazill:
And so the economic impact of that work is now measured in billions with an S. I think about two and a half billion dollars in increased wages has now been accumulated across our graduates. The way that it really reshapes people's lives and the things that I hear from our graduates are helping people to move from work where they felt disrespected, where they felt frustrated that they weren't able to spend more time with their family or control their own schedule or create a path for themselves that left them feeling fulfilled to moving into careers. Changing the face of tech and actually it does, it impacts your entire ecosystem.

Caitlyn Brazill:
But more importantly, it's changing communities. It is children who instead are seeing their parents feel an experience, that dignity of work that they feel every day is actually giving them the personal satisfaction that they need. And that is hugely different than going to a job where you both don't feel like you're getting the economic advancement that you need, but also that you don't feel personally invested in.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I’m super moved by most of the stuff that you just said. So you should know that, like I actually get a little bit reclaimed about this because because so I start a podcast about how we spend 92,000 hours the most of our lives at work and what we're getting at here is so important because one way like how important is it that you feel dignity at work all of us every person who goes to work should be entitled to to feel dignity there and feel dignified about their work because it's how they're spending their lives.

Annalisa Holcombe:
And so even if that work is something that is not the thing they wanna do forever, it does provide, like work itself provides dignity in terms of providing for yourself or your family. Like there's something about just work that is is dignified, right?

Caitlyn Brazill:
It is, it is. You know, so just last week, I was in DC for a couple of days. I was at this funder conference and one of the folks that they asked to come and speak on a panel was one of our alums, this woman, Ayanna Dunlop. She came to her school during the pandemic. So she was someone who had worked in hospitality. And honestly, she is someone who I would say really was figuring out a path for herself. I mean, she had started as a night shift person at a hotel and had advanced in her career, was already managing multiple hotels, but was very frustrated at the fact that to do the hospitality industry is nights and weekends, right?

Caitlyn Brazill:
It's whatever schedule kind of gets thrown at you. But she also just wasn't advancing economically, right? She barely had raises. She'd gotten increasing responsibility and was just frustrated that she felt like she was never going to make ends meet. And she was frustrated because her mother, who I also got to meet, was drowning in $300,000 in student loan debt for social work degree.

Caitlyn Brazill:
So that was rough, right? And so she got laid off during COVID and said like, okay, I'm not going back to this. Like I'm not, I've got to figure out a different path, right? And so she got some advice from friends. She ended up going online, found Per Scholas as tuition-free opportunity, thought, of course, this must be a scam, found some other people who were able to validate, okay, this is real, right?

Caitlyn Brazill:
And she told me that she was about halfway through the class, was so frustrated, was just so exhausted, was like, I had no idea how much work this was going to be. It was tremendous support, but I really didn't think I was going to make it. One of my old boss called me and said, "Hey, you could come back. It's going to be a lower pay, but you can come back." And I really thought about it. And I thought, "I need a job. I just have to do this thing." And she reached out to her career coach and sat down and said, "Okay, help me make this decision the right way."

Caitlyn Brazill:
And so they looked at, "Okay, what are your employment prospects. How do you think about this? We've still got to get through two more months here. This is going to be really tough. You're going to be able to make it.” And the part of that story that really jumped out to me is that she said, "No one was trying to sell her on. Sign up for Per Scholas because you should follow through on this thing." It was purely, "Let's just help you have the information that you need to make your smart decision about your destiny.”

Caitlyn Brazill:
And so the difference of that, like that is treating someone with dignity. That is saying to someone, you are the expert where you want your future to go. And so she decided to stick it out. She got a job working for a managed services provider immediately post-graduation. After nine months supporting this organization, which is a nonprofit that actually the Bank Policy Institute, so they're like the coalition representing banks, they poached her and said, "Can you come work for us directly? We don't want to work with the managed services provider anymore."

Caitlyn Brazill:
She's been there now for almost four years. She's now an assistant vice running the team, she's high, she's managing the contract that she used to work under, right? And this woman, she sat on the panel with, you know, a room full of folks who frankly are, we've all been in the world of philanthropy, right? And like I said, there's a lot of people who are very clear on their opinions and think that they are very well grounded in things.

Caitlyn Brazill:
This woman was so articulate, thoughtful, and able to navigate a conversation about philanthropy, about how we should be thinking about economic mobility. You know, she runs a tech team. This is not her expertise, right? But where she could really bring expertise was how you should be treating every single person who is trying to advance their careers and what it would look like if we actually had policies wrapped around people that supported them in this way.

Caitlyn Brazill:
And, you know, I just thought like this is, she is just a complete inspiration to me. So you're talking about getting overclocked. I was like tearing up, listening to this woman, not just because, yes, she has an incredibly happy ending. She's purchased a house. She helped her mom pay down that debt. like she's been able to accomplish so much, but I really think more than that she also is commanding a room full of people for how to actually treat people with dignity.

Annalisa Holcombe:
That's so amazing and so lovely to hear that story. It's interesting because it's like right before telling that story you talked about that at Per Scholas you set the table for the people that take your courses, that move on in their lives. And then telling this story in some ways, she was also setting the table, but like teaching back to people that this is what dignity looks like without having to specifically say that. And I wonder, like, do you have, what can we take from that? What are the ways that someone like me or someone like your nine-year-old asking you the question about his privilege…?

Annalisa Holcombe:
It all wraps up together for me. So like, how can we understand how to set the table? How to treat people with dignity? How to show up in that way in your experience? And maybe you don't like any advice for me, like how can I do this better?

Caitlyn Brazill:
You know, Annalisa, I think the thing that we can always do is ask questions, be curious and not assume, right? And I think that applies at every level. That applies when we're designing programs and policies that applies when you're literally working one-on-one with someone about what they're looking to accomplish.

Caitlyn Brazill:
I think what it comes down to is her experience and being treated with dignity was really a matter of people all along the way talking to her and understanding from her where she wants to go and what she wants and respecting that she has the intelligence, the capability, the insight to make good decisions.

Caitlyn Brazill:
We all make bad decisions sometimes. That's a lot to be clear, but I think what is really, really important in the context of non-profit work, of economic mobility right is assuming that people have the best expertise on their own lives and where they are trying to go with them and kind of starting from there.

Annalisa Holcombe:
You have a different approach when it comes to thinking about dignity in your own life or with your kids as opposed to what you do that work?

Caitlyn Brazill:
That's a good question.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I know. It's a hard question, too.

Caitlyn Brazill:
It is because, you know, let me be clear. I am a fairly autocratic ruler of my home. But… And a little less agency there than there would be. And this is, honestly, I have to give a full credit to where it's due. I actually think this is the good thing about having a co-parent who occasionally, while experiencing contempt for a lot of other people, is someone who reminds me and who does intentionally give agency to our kids, which is what has produced much more independent, resilient, thoughtful, capable people than I often see among the nine-year-old set, right?

Caitlyn Brazill:
But I also think that there's something about modeling this political discourse that I've just been very conscious of. And everything that we're saying and hearing right now, I think it's really important. And I have taken the time, especially in recent months, to ensure that when I hear my children repeating something that maybe another adult said, that we stop and kind of pick that apart and think about are we assuming that this person is not really a person?

Caitlyn Brazill:
I mean, to me, treating people with dignity is treating people as people, right, is assuming that everyone has inherent worth. And so if you talk about people in a way that assumes they don't, then you're dehumanizing them. And I think that's a really important step. And sometimes it's easier to do at home, right?

Caitlyn Brazill:
The great thing about parenting is that you're like teaching all the time, right? And you're really conscious of it. And so I think it helps me to get better about the way I both process what people are saying and myself like choosing my own words. Because I have this other lens of thinking about like how would that sound if it came out of my children's mouths?

Annalisa Holcombe:
No, that's so good. That's so I like I feel like it's spot-on and I feel like the… this is a really important moment in time in terms of how we educate our own kids about dignity while they're right now in the middle of the social time we live in. It's a place where it's a time when they can hear undignified speech all the time. And understanding that what that means and how that separates us feels really important to do for our kids. So I love that you talked about that.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So I, this is a place where I don't even know how to go here, but here's the story. I was in a PhD program and one of my faculty members wrote a book a long time ago. She is a black woman who lived in Amsterdam and she got her PhD. She's really like she's decorated there with her through her knowledge, but she wrote a book in the late 70s. I I think maybe mid, late 70s, early 80s, called Everyday Racism and she was talking about how in Amsterdam, if she was experiencing racism all the time and then gave real examples about that.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Recently, a documentary maker there wrote, did a documentary about her called Everyday Dignity and it's really interesting that those two thoughts are so linked and I feel like that's real, like those isms about racism and sexism and like those are real in terms of how we approach people with dignity and I don't know if I have a question about that other than yeah does that resonate and what can we do about do you have any idea what we can do about it?

Caitlyn Brazill:
I mean, a hundred percent, Annalisa, I think, look, this is exactly people being treated without dignity is, is, there's lots of motivating factors, right? And who is treated without dignity, it's generally exactly this kind of, it is both racism, it is sexism, it is ableism, right? It's making an assessment based on whatever piece of knowledge you have about an individual or a group that they are not going to be worthy of value or respect.

Caitlyn Brazill:
And whether you say that out loud or simply demonstrate through your actions that that's fundamentally what what you are thinking. That's how it shows up. And I think that is exactly why an organization like Per Scholas is like 90% of our learners are people of color, four in 10 are women who are trying to break into a male-dominated industry.

Caitlyn Brazill:
Many of our learners are people who have gone to college and not been able to make it to a right? And all of those factors are the kinds of things that also lead people to be treated without dignity. And so the importance of pushing beyond that, right, of believing, one, that you are worthy of being treated with honor and respect by all people in all contexts, but also that, you know, part of our work as an organization is to help show the employers that we work with, the funders that we work with, right, the larger ecosystem that every single person who is engaged in our work deserves that dignified treatment and that we are, you know, not just dealing with humans, we are creating a talent pipeline of incredibly capable and motivated people who are likely to actually be better prepared for the workforce than many people who are coming from more traditional talent pipelines.

Caitlyn Brazill:
I think that's where we start to unlock the true value proposition, right, which is that for people who feel like they haven't been treated with dignity at other points in their careers or their educational experience, we try very hard at Per Scholas to from moment one through the rest of your life, right, to be treating people with the dignity and respect that they deserve.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that because it turns into something that that is, that becomes like a part of them as a, like now they can walk through the world having part of what you did was set the table for them to experience full dignity. So um, and then that can become intergenerational, right? Like the more, I feel like it's a subject matter that I've not talked about enough in terms of what is economic mobility, what is social mobility, and how is that aligned with dignity? And it's something that I'm going to start thinking about critically after this conversation with you. Like I wanna think through how I bring that concept of dignity into it at the same time.

Caitlyn Brazill:
You know, Annalisa, I have one other thought and I think it's one of the things that makes workplaces better. And I would say this is a thing that I'm ever like trying to improve on, right? That treating people with dignity doesn't mean that you don't disagree with them, right? Or really importantly, that you don't give feedback. And I think one of the things that's really important is that you can empathize with literally anyone, right?

Caitlyn Brazill:
Like that human emotion of empathy is critical, but that if you don't truly treat people with dignity, hold back, feed back that could otherwise help them grow. And I think in a work context, right? In the work environments that we live in, I think one of the things that people often do is avoid conflict, right? One way to ensure that you're treating people with dignity is just to never argue with them about anything or state your opinions. And that is not a productive or forward looking approach.

Caitlyn Brazill:
And I think in context that is actually what can fold people back. And so that's one of the other ways that I think this shows up. And then I think all of us, myself included, can be better about really thinking about are there times where there's feedback, here's ideas that need to be on the table, and that you're holding back in one way or another to avoid conflict. And I think that's just a huge piece of people's dignity.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that you said that. And I think that it reminds me of the avoiding conflict can having a having a difficult conversation with someone is treating them with dignity and and also I was thinking about this a lot that there are times in my career when I think that I have sat back because a system is happening around me in which I could have been a better ally.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I could have said I'd like to hear so and, and so speak. Like where I could make sure that I give someone a seat at the table or that once they're sitting there I make sure that their voice is heard in ways that I haven't always done because in some ways you're waiting to see if somebody else is going to do it but really maybe acting with dignity is me being the one that does it so that it starts happening all the time. You know what I mean?

Caitlyn Brazill:
Annalisa that was 100% my answer to my nine-year-old's question about white privilege, that's how we are. Absolutely. I think that is a huge part of effectively actually creating an environment where people feel they are being treated with dignity and respect. If every person takes it upon themselves to identify and then act when things that feel like systems are sort of pulling them along, but there is a moment where a whole bunch of individuals are not saying anything to stop it. And so all of us need to be in a place where we...

Annalisa Holcombe:
Like summon that courage and do it.

Caitlyn Brazill:
There you go.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love it. I wanna respect your time. I know that I'm spending probably even more time than you're prepared for but I always have my I love that we brought it around to what we talked about at the beginning. I always have my question that I ask at the end which is always about it's about mentors because I believe that even if people around us don't know that they're mentoring us. There are mentors in our lives that I just believe in the power of that.

Annalisa Holcombe:
And if there's an individual or two that you really think I'd love to acknowledge their mentorship here. This is just an opportunity for you to tell someone that they've had an influence in your life in that way. So, anybody that you would like to tell us about as a mentor?

Caitlyn Brazill:
Well, it feels like sort of a cop-out, Annalisa, to talk about my boss, but I'm gonna do it You know, I've been working at Per Scholas for seven years and when I came to Per Scholas I've worked in the world of economic mobility for now 20+ years it seems but always focused in New York City. I actually knew about Per Scholas before I knew any of the people who were there I knew than it because I worked for a different organization and we collaborated on a federal grant proposal. And so I had seen Per Scholas’ outcome numbers before anything else.

Caitlyn Brazill:
Like fundamentally deep down in part, Annalisa, I am a data nerd. And so I thought, wow, either of these people are lying or they are very good at what they do, right? And had just, you know, filed it away. Years later, I, you know, somebody reached out about a role that was open and Per Scholas And I had a couple of conversations and then I went up to the Bronx and I met Plenio Ayala for the first time It's really charming guy and he walks me around an empty office space And I'm like what is going on here?

Caitlyn Brazill:
But it also like I you… So I've worked in nonprofits my whole life. The idea of having unused real estate even for 15 seconds, it was disturbing to me. Why are there empty cubicles here? And he's telling me this whole story about how they're working with an employer partner and they're about to create this new thing.

Caitlyn Brazill:
And you're sort of listening to someone and saying, I know that you're seeing the future right now, But I'm looking at a bunch of empty cubicles, and I wonder, am I going to take this leap and believe you that this future is real? And so I took the leap. I mean, I clearly, I jumped in, and the future was real.

Caitlyn Brazill:
And within six months, that space was entirely alive. We were partnering with a company that was, I mean, in a couple of years, we trained 1,000 people for different tech roles that allowed us to build out this entire customized training business that we had never existed before.

Caitlyn Brazill:
But the thing that I came to learn about Plenio is that he can actually see potential. And really all he does to unlock it is kind of like kick around the edges and say, "I can see there's potential. Why don't you figure that out?" Right?

Caitlyn Brazill:
And as a leader, he, you know, he always says, like, "I just surround myself with smart people and get out of their way." But in reality, it's that he can see what we could do, and he paints that picture and brings people around him who really want to make that happen and who develop the right capabilities to get there. And so, you know, as a person who's had the pleasure of working with him for seven years now, I can see that happening over and over again, including with myself. And that's just a real joy.

Annalisa Holcombe:
That's amazing because the work that you're able to do because of that literally changes so many lives. And it's interesting because we've talked a lot about how that changes the lives for the folks that you serve who are then getting into these jobs. But boy, does it change the companies that they're going to as well in really important ways. And then their colleagues that are then also changed because these students who then become their colleagues changed the way that they do business in, I'm imagining, really smart and good ways.

Caitlyn Brazill:
They really do, Annalisa. Okay, I'm giving you one more story. One of the companies we've been working with for a really long time is Barclays Bank. They're a British bank, but they've got big headquarters in New York and then they moved down to New Jersey. We've been working with them for years. And one of the things we do probably quarterly is a big mock interview event where we'll bring our learners and folks who are Barclays employees will, you know, give them an opportunity to practice interviews. Super important skill development.

Caitlyn Brazill:
Well, a couple of years, but Barclays has been regularly hiring Per Scholas grads over the years. So a couple of years ago, I came to one of our larger events. There's probably 70 or 80 employees of the bank in the room and 70 or 80 Per Scholas learners. And as I'm talking to people, I'm hearing over and over again, "Oh yeah, yeah, I was in, I was in cohort 19. Oh yeah, I graduated in 2014. No way."

Caitlyn Brazill:
And so at some point during the event, we asked everyone who was a Per Scholas alum to raise their hand. And I'm gonna tell you, out of 70 volunteers, probably 40 were Per Scholas alums. And that changed the entire dynamic in the room, where every person who was in it, who was so stressed about whether they had made the right choice, whether they were gonna graduate from this program where they were going to launch their career, then realized, oh my god, this entire bank, this stuffy British bank is filled with me. And that honestly changes everything.

Annalisa Holcombe:
That's so beautiful. Well done, Barclays, and well done Per Scholas. That's amazing.

Caitlyn Brazill:
It's so important to be able to see yourself there and to see your success, like the path is real.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Path is real. I love it. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. I am so grateful. I cannot wait to put this podcast out into the world so other people can hear the story of both Per Scholas but also of Caitlyn because you are a joy to connect with. And I'm so grateful that I get to call you someone that hopefully every now and then you can acknowledge as your friend because boy, I think you're awesome. And I'm so thrilled that you were here today.

Caitlyn Brazill:
Thank you so much, Annalisa. This was really a lot of fun.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I am so grateful to Caitlyn, her wisdom and passion ring true. I know that I'll be thinking about dignity for months to come. You can learn more about Katelyn and her work at perscholas.org. And you can find her, of course, on LinkedIn.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Our next episode, I'll be joined by Sean Tygan from the Utah Foundation, and we will be talking about engagement, so I hope you'll join us.