Transcript

Annalisa Holcombe:
The average human spends 92 ,000 hours at work during their lifetime. It's more than we spend eating, cleaning, driving, watching TV, or surfing the internet.

Annalisa Holcombe:
It's even more time than we spend with the people we love. In fact, work is what we do most. It comes second only to sleeping. How do we construct a working world that values and accommodates our humanity?

Annalisa Holcombe:
How do we construct a life that is not separate from, but is fueled by the purpose we find in our work? In this podcast, we will explore those questions and more.

Annalisa Holcombe:
This season, we're featuring our change makers, people working in the nonprofit and fundraising industries. The original meaning of the word philanthropy is to love humankind.

Annalisa Holcombe:
What does it mean to work on loving humankind for your living? What aspects of their work apply to all of us? What are the joys and the challenges?

Annalisa Holcombe:
And what can we take away from these folks about how to make a difference in the world? Today on our episode of 92,000 Hours changemaker season, we are joined by Mark Shreve. I first met Mark during the first year of the pandemic. We met over Zoom and we maintained a relationship online in that time period.

Annalisa Holcombe:
We've remained in contact since that initial call, and in each conversation, I learn more and more about his path. In this podcast, Mark references the many, mini chapters of his life. He started his career in higher education fundraising 20 years ago, which he calls the simpler times, and he has mostly worked in higher education ever since.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Part of Mark's higher ed career was devoted to international education that took him to Italy for five years, and it was there that he developed the idea to start his own pasta company, which he did. And it's something that Mark talks about as a pride point that sticks with him. For the past seven years, Mark has served as managing director and principal of Education Advisory Board, EAB, a firm that is devoted to higher education. And it's there that he develops partnerships designed to support university fundraising across the United States and sometimes across the globe.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So join me in welcoming Mark and it's going to be a great conversation. I'm super excited to welcome Mark Shrieve to this podcast because Mark is I think people will find you very interesting just as I do.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So to start off the podcast, I want to start with my first question that I ask everyone, which is if you remove anything related to work or sports or religion or research or maybe volunteerism, what are you most proud about yourself as a human being and why?

Mark Shreve:
Great question. I also love that we start our relationship on Zoom, which is really challenging to do, Annalisa, but we've kept it going, which is great, and have, of course, seen each other in between those meetings, too. What am I most proud of?

Mark Shreve:
Don't really have the sports trophy, so I won't be mentioning those anyway. I think what I'm most prod of when I look back on the past 40 -some years is that I haven't always taken the conventional path.

Mark Shreve:
And I think when I was growing up, I expected to certainly follow some sort of conventional path and maybe not always from my own dynamic interest to take a leap, but others may have pushed me or influenced me or there's a bit of a trust to it. But I've had a lot of mini chapters, right so I I have a former colleague who used to mock that he would keep my address in pencil because I was moving all the time.

Mark Shreve:
But throughout all these different changes of address, I was still sort of weaving something together. And looking back now, I realized that there's a real value, of course, in changing your scenery, changing your career, changing your job within that, because you learn from each different chapter. So I see some other friends and colleagues, and it's not for every interesting.

Mark Shreve:
Like, oh, I met Annalisa. She has this job. That sounds interesting. I could probably do that too. So my first career out of college was to be a fundraiser. And I had no idea that occupation ever existed growing up, but stumbled upon it as a student caller like many of us do and see that there is something of interest to that role. But I didn't stay long, right? I was that cliche of the person who took a first job in annual giving and then left after 18 to 24 months.

Mark Shreve:
And I stayed in and around higher ed for 20 some years, but I also took some other paths away from it, too. You know, there are some things that I've done too in the past 20 years where I knew probably wouldn't pay off or I knew wouldn't be long -term paths, but there's still value in that. And I think looking back on the professional elements of it, those are the actual locations I think were most interesting, right? The pride points. what do you like?

Annalisa Holcombe:
And for you, I said, I think we should focus on connection. So I'm really interested in, A, how do you feel about that and B, what does that mean to you, the idea of talking about connection?

Mark Shreve:
I think it's a, when you suggested connection as the theme, it is a word that's not always defined necessarily. We use it pretty often. But I think it's really meaningful.

Mark Shreve:
So one of my skills, and I sometimes hate when people refer to these things. there's a real power in that, right? Because there are individuals in our lives, no matter where you meet them, that are going through similar challenges or have similar interests or want to bring their skills together.

Mark Shreve:
And I think that that's where great things can happen. I used to joke that if I did not work in my current role, I'd probably be like a greeter at a large retail store, just making sure that people felt welcomed. it just comes naturally. And I think that's also where I get my energy, too, is whenever I have to dial into a Zoom and talk to someone like you, that's not tedious, right? That's for me what I love to do most. Do you think in order to be that type of connector, someone, like talk to me about the skill of connecting human beings with each other.

Annalisa Holcombe:
What does that mean for you how has that worked do you have any examples of it and why is that fun?

Mark Shreve:
Yeah, I think there are two main things that have to go into this one um may I don't need to make this scientific for something that comes somewhat naturally to some people but one I think you have to be a naturally curious right you have to be asking questions you to be a good listener you and I could meet for an hour and keep things quite surface level and never go anywhere type of work.

Mark Shreve:
If you don't ask those kinds of questions, you don't understand really how to connect you with other people. So that's the first thing, is asking better questions. And I even coach myself on that quite a bit because it's quite easy for us to ask a question. I can get overly excited about your response and then shut down the conversation or take a different direction. I think asking, you know, deeper questions is even more important, which This is your job now as the podcast host.

Mark Shreve:
The second piece is you have to, and I hate to use this crass language, but one of my mottos is you have to give a damn, right? Like you have to care about what Annalisa is going through or cares about. And then also say, oh, I think there'd be value in you meeting with somebody else. And I thought that everyone had those skills 20 years ago, but not everyone takes that next step and thinks, oh, it would be of interest that maybe Mark would love to talk to Annalisa because they have similar ideas, and together they could think about maybe a new way of approaching that. But I think those two elements are the most important.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that.

Mark Shreve:
And I want to go back to COVID because I have this thing that I actually miss COVID, which seems strange, but I loved meeting everyone on Zoom and seeing their lives. Like I had never, it was weird, and I think it seems different from other people, but I had never felt so close to other people than I did when we were all on Zoom because the full humanity of them was often showing up and it made me love them more.

Mark Shreve:
I wasn't seeing their like curated work persona. I was seeing them and I missed that. Yep. I mean, the alternative now, I was on a call the other day where I was presenting virtually into a conference room. And so I'm looking at the screen of a long table. I can't see anyone's specific reactions.

Mark Shreve:
But yeah, early COVID three, three, four years ago, I don't even know what was early COVID four years ago. You know, there would be times where I'd be speaking to someone like you and their child would come in and sit on their lap and we'd say, hey, listen, maybe we should just cancel this meeting for the rest of the day. It also depends on how you reacted to it. I had to admit that I had a pretty privileged COVID experience. Exactly.

Mark Shreve:
You know, I didn't really struggle through COVID. I kept my job. I remained healthy. My family remained healthy. But I was also the one who was planning all the virtual happy hours or the Zoom events to keep different networks together. And after a while, I didn't exhaust some people. But for me, I had to fill that void because I wasn't, you know, traveling to see. I'm a connector.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Exactly right. How does extroversion play into connection and being a connector in the way that you are? Or does it?

Mark Shreve:
I don't think you need to be an extrovert to be a good connector. Because the two elements that I just share don't require that you are necessarily extroverted. But you have to get energy from people.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So for me, this is also where I get my energy. If you ask me what's the ideal weekend plan, it's some sort of social event with a group of people. And so I think that really helps because that means you probably have a greater volume of people you're connecting with throughout, you know, your daily life. I have friends of mine who are shocked when I tell them that I'm not an extrovert because they think that I get all of my energy from lots of people.

Annalisa Holcombe:
But I get all of my energy from deeper connections with a smaller group of people. Like big events are, I can do them, but I don't love them. But I have this story that I went to dinner with a stranger for work. And he was a Harvard Divinity School grad. And I have like this Harvard Divinity School grad who's really good at his like thinking about the future of religion in America. And I was like, and we were at a Rupubhub in Milwaukee. encapsulates me a lot. And I'm interested in how does that resonate with you? And as a connector, are you able yourself to,when do you have those deeper connections? And what does that look like for you?


Mark Shreve:
I would imagine in your role, Annalisa, the big events aren't required to be successful. If you are looking at connecting with an individual one -on -one, that doesn't happen in a prepared to talk about what you wanted, but rather something that interested them, which is what it's what it's all about. I mean, that's exactly what's going to make you successful in your world. Not talking about that, I forgot about your initial question.

Annalisa Holcombe:
How do you engage in deeper connections with people? What does that show up like for you, both as a connector, but also professionally or personally? What is that, what does like real connection feel like or look like in your life.

Mark Shreve:
That's a tough question. You're stumping me here because it can look like different things. The reason why I'm pausing here is because I think what it means to me is also differently what it means to other people that are on the other end, right?

Mark Shreve:
There's a membership to this. So some folks in my life just need a quick check -in of consistently are you, you know, had that quality time together.

Annalisa Holcombe:
How does connection for you differ professionally and personally? What does it mean to be connected in those two different realms of your life?

Mark Shreve:
Luckily for me, my job requires that I, I feel the reason the word connects too often here, my job requires that I maintain relationships with a large number of individuals. But the good news here is that those individuals are also whole self to work. And I actually love the opportunity that we travel quite a bit for work. And nothing really can replace those in -person conversations. I mentioned before the boardroom example, right? And if I am traveling to see you and meet with you and your team and I'm spending 90 minutes in that boardroom presenting, that's not where I get my energy, right?

Mark Shreve:
I'd much rather meet you for coffee beforehand or just that two -minute walk down the hallway from the boardroom or presentation room, conference room, to the parking lot is where that moment really occurs, right? And so I think even that's the thing that was missing in COVID is that we can present all we want to for 60 or 90 minutes, but it's that moment of, was that productive for you? Do you think your team really enjoyed that?

Mark Shreve:
Would that be energizing for them, that's the moment that I need to get from people. I feel that I do the same thing. When I'm speaking in front of people, which I really like to do, it is that the reciprocity from the group. And you can tell if people aren't interested. And you can also tell when they are. And it feels great when you're having that experience, which leads me to thinking a lot about moving the discussion a little bit from connection and connection. to goodness connections rather than surface level.

Mark Shreve:
And yet, at work, we need surface level. And sometimes even in our personal lives, we need surface level connections too.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So I guess for me, I'm really interested in hearing from you about where does authenticity play for you in the role of connecting and then in the next stage of relationship building?

Mark Shreve:
I have to make a confession. I'm glad you name your business authentic connections because I think that it's... That would be silly. I get it. I know. It's for somebody who feels like they have genuine relationships by putting a name on that or a word on that seems almost least authentic or less authentic than it was.

Mark Shreve:
You know, I think, so we were talking about this in the context of my current role and you know when you when you are connector there's a lot of give and take and I think the authentic piece that comes in the fact that you can't always be taking right you have to genuinely be showing that you care about building value and whatever that relationship is whether that it's a friendship a intimate relationship a professional relationship.

Mark Shreve:
And I can't always be calling upon you and asking for something in return without getting something to you that's a value as well, whether it's, hey, I thought of you and I read this article, or I'd like to recommend that maybe you consider this candidate for a position, or I think there's a new data set that might be of interest to you. I think showing it in those ways is far more important than just saying words like you value something, right?

Mark Shreve:
That goes back to actually any examples of that or how do you, well, I had a conversation with someone just a few days ago where they said that the act of honestly listening is one of the first gifts that we can give another person. And I thought that was just so beautiful.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So I'd love to hear your thoughts on listening in this context. Some folks in my world might say I need some development here as well. But I think there is, there's always some practice that one can have here in active listening. And it's true. This goes back to the point about you don't have to be an extrovert to be a good connector.

Annalisa Holcombe:
And perhaps it's a, perhaps it could be, you know, also more challenging for you. One of my other strengths, if you follow strengths finders, is to be an activator. So I feel like I'm always emotionally reacting quickly to something, and that could be a very good thing, right? It could be a very positive way.

Mark Shreve:
Let's get started on this. I get excited by the energy of other people. That's where I get that extraverted energy from.

Mark Shreve:
And so it's really difficult for me, in some cases, to let you have that stage in that moment, and then maybe even more difficult, ask a simple question, lets you have the silence to go deeper. And that's the really challenging piece is also getting comfortable with that silence that requires people to share more as they're ready and as they feel more trust. That's not always easy. So it's not just listening.

Mark Shreve:
It's also becoming comfortable with just that silence and letting people fill it up. Which is so hard to do. So hard to do. What's the first thing they teach you as you're a development officer? I remember my first lesson that someone said to me was after you make your ask stop talking right because our our inclinations is the key talking and adding into that silence with more noise let them fill that space right let them respond and then go from there my best lessons as a fundraiser has been that and has also been just approaching what you said at the very beginning approaching the whole conversation, the whole endeavor with natural curiosity.

Mark Shreve:
I think curiosity is like it's a secret weapon for people who are good at connecting. Um, because it, and I don't like the word weapon. I mean, maybe it's like the secret tool, but it is like the thing that you can bring if it's real. If it's not real, people can tell immediately.

Mark Shreve:
If it's real and you're honestly curious about the person or about their values or about their interests, it feels so good to have those conversations with people,regardless of if it's in a professional context or a personal one.

Mark Shreve:
And sometimes that has to start before the conversation begins. You have to, when you are asking someone to meet with you, show them that you are interested and you do care, right? Because even before you sit down across from them in that Milwaukee bar that you referenced, they're making a decision whether it's worth their time to share that space with you or not.

Mark Shreve:
In my current role, we do a lot of discovery because, you know, would not be productive if I just came to you all the time and said, this is what we do. Do you want it yes or no? I want to figure out what it is you're working on, what specific challenges you have, where we might customize work for you and your team. if I'm having a cold meeting with somebody.

Mark Shreve:
And that is, hey, how are you and the team holding up? Right? Or maybe if it's not professional question, it's “Annalisa, it's been a while, how are you holding up? How are you energized this part of the year?” Something simple because the way that folks can respond to that simple question can take a conversation in a whole different number of directions.

Mark Shreve:
I had that with a bionant, okay, how are we feeling now? And is there any difference between the okay? Is it a little better, a little worse? Let's have another check -in. Here's a sign.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Do you feel like a lot of, do you think you're the person where a lot of people will spill them all their secrets to or spill their stories too?

Mark Shreve:
Yes. And there's something that's, I think, deep within you, too, that is this ability to connect with folks, right? They sense or they feel that you're credible, you're trustworthy, you're interested. And so they're going to share more, right? That's something like I said, you can't tell people that. They can't hear they have to feel it.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I also think that people will be more likely to really be honest with you and tell you who they are if you're willing to do it first. If you're open enough to be vulnerable and not put on some kind of like a performative, this is who I'm supposed to show up as today and instead just showing up as yourself, which is so scary.

Annalisa Holcombe:
It's really hard to show up as yourself, especially in a professional context where you're thinking like, I remember that when I'm like, I'm a senior vice president or I'm the president. I still feel the same way and I'm still the same person who was a beginner. I know more things, but I'm still the same person. And when I allowed myself to just be me, it felt, it made it easier for me to have other people be themselves to, regardless of any of our places in society, we're all just human.

Mark Shreve:
Yeah. And there's, I went through a fellowship experience at my current employer and we had a session on amplifying your personal brand. And I felt more apprehension about sharing my personal brand than just being comfortable as myself. Those same conversations that were matched with at some point some executive coaching.

Mark Shreve:
And the interesting part was that the executive coach will tell you, if you're feeling like your personal brand is an exercise to your current role, you're in the wrong role, right? So if I am working through this exercise to share what my personal brand is, and it feels like I'm not ashamed to admit that or I'm forcing it to fit into this box, then I think that means you're in a good spot.

Annalisa Holcombe:
That's super interesting. How did it turn out for you?

Mark Shreve:
Well, we talked a lot about being that personal connector, right? And it's internally my role at this company is too full. One is to connect with our partners and clients and their universities and make sure they have what they need to be successful.

Mark Shreve:
But then internally, it's also making sure that we're collaborating so that we're not all going to Annalisa with 10 different solutions. And I think that's important too, knowing in higher ed right now, it's having a moment where there are a lot of organizations who are saying, hey, we can help you. Here's the brightest, shiniest thing. And you might not need all those things to something a bit more simple to get that next step.

Mark Shreve:
So I think that is certainly as we're talking about connections right now, there's two different focus of that in my role. I want to talk a little bit about if we move it just a little bit.

Annalisa Holcombe:
We've talked about the like the pro side of how we connect personally and professionally and different ways to do that. But what about that moment when you feel disconnected And what do you do about it? How?

Mark Shreve:
And let’s take take, then at some point, you know, there's a drain on you because I think in my case, maybe for others out there who are listening to this too, your inclination if people are take, taking is to lean in further, and then all of a sudden you are now sort of exposed in a way. And sometimes cutting it off is healthy. I'm not the best at resetting some of those relationships. Maybe others are.

Mark Shreve:
It's also challenging to accept that sometimes people just don't want to consider. 10 or 20 relationships. And so it's just understanding what people need. And that's okay too. Not everyone's like me, thankfully.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Is there a way when you're feeling disconnected in a relationship that's important to you that you have found a way to reset that connection?

Mark Shreve:
Oh, I know you've probably had it in your personal life because we all do. But Either one, personal or professional. You know, I don't think I'm great at this, candidly. And I think I'm probably better at it professionally than I am personally. But I think if we start professionally, the best way to sort of address it is, again, to reset that, if we're talking now on service, reset that discovery process, right? Go back to that hey, what's what's going on these days or how are you holding up?

Mark Shreve:
Something seems different or why just okay. And I think maybe if I'm feeling that disconnect, they likely are as well and either intentionally want to feel that way or are struggling to have someone to invite them to share more. And I think I'm probably better at that professionally than I have been personally.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that. And I like the honesty that you have about that, which makes me wonder, are there any people in your personal life that you want to reinforce a connection with? Not that you have to name them, but do you have any of that you're like, oh, I now need to reach out to so -and -so?

Mark Shreve:
No. I feel good about it.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Awesome. That's great.

Mark Shreve:
However, I will say I have classic FOMO that sometimes it's never enough time. And that's harder because, as I said, I have, I've experienced many, many chapters in my life where I might have moved to different cities. And for someone like me, I don't lose touch with a lot of those. Well, in those cities I've made. So they keep adding up, right?

Mark Shreve:
So for instance, I had the fortune of living in Chicago for a couple years. One of the world's greatest cities. And so I always going to go back to Chicago, see those people. But Chicago's as long as long way.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Yeah, of course. I love that. And it makes me think about that because you just brought that up. Talk to me about connections to communities. You've had this fortune of being able to move and live in different places, which also means you have different friend groups, you have like different experiences, are there, and I'm thinking of different types of communities. Can you talk a little bit about what it means to be connected to a place geographically or to a community of people?

Mark Shreve:
For example, you know, people find their own, like this is for lack of a better word. People say like you find your people. You find like wherever you live or wherever you or church community, which is also where I was raised. A lot of folks are raised that way. And I think there's still this traditional expectation is that that's where you find your support network for a lot of folks.

Mark Shreve:
What's great is that for those who do not fit into that category, it's easy to find those communities, as you said, whether it's in a local group or geographic group, it's some sort of interest group. This is also where probably your kids and younger folks are finding their people online, too. And, you know, I think we, I'm generalizing here, but perhaps those of us who didn't grow up online like kids are these days, fail to understand what kind of connection that really provides.

Mark Shreve:
But it is possible to find these different levels of communities matter where you go. I was… Two weeks ago, I was back at my alma mater, undergraduate alma mater for my 20th college year reunion and was blown away by just the relationships I reconnected with. It took me back to a different time and place. I've been involved with that college for 20 years as an alumni volunteer, but just going back and seeing the group of classmates that I had and hearing about what they've done was really energizing.

Mark Shreve:
I'm inspired by them as it was interesting to see how all of us who looked the same and kind of without my influence, it has been, like, watching her come alive as who she is has been beautiful. And I think it is those connections that she's made. And in some ways, like, finding her own chosen community that she feels good in has been awesome.

Mark Shreve:
Yeah. So what has surprised you? If I can turn the tables here on you, has she done so in a way that's different than you perhaps would have or have expected?

Annalisa Holcombe:
I mean, yes. I was afraid. As a kid, I was afraid of New York City. I was like, that's a big city. It seems scary. I'm from Utah. What do I know? And I think that people around me led me to that. But as she has, as she grew up, she grew up with that natural curiosity and with an openness to other people and didn't see them with fear and saw them with interest.

Annalisa Holcombe:
And she was drawn to New York even when she was like 15 and spent a summer there living with a friend of mine that worked at Goldman Sachs. And she was like, this is where I need to be because everyone's interesting and everyone's different.

Annalisa Holcombe:
It's not a homogenous group of people and I want that in my life and her friend group is also that like it's not a homogenous group of people they're all different but they um honor their differences better than I think I people that when I was her age did at least where I grew up yeah I think I hear those stories quite a bit.

Annalisa Holcombe:
And I would imagine for somebody who's in their 20s currently, they have the benefit of perhaps a more open mind than even I had 20 years ago and just think of if she ever has children, what their mind is too. Right? So that gives me energy, right? There's a lot of, there's a lot of skeptical news and negative reporting in the world. But hearing those stories makes me excited.

Mark Shreve:
Me too. I feel like we hear about the people connecting with each other or failing to connect because we're afraid of each other. But then the people that are connecting with each other are finding common bonds in ways that we knew we were there. We just didn't experience them enough. So I think it's a great thing.

Annalisa Holcombe:
When we were talking about, I'm going to go back to the very beginning and then I'll ask a one find meaning and purpose.

Mark Shreve:
Yeah, I think, Annalisa, I hope that never stops, right? I don't imagine that I will be in this same role until I retire, and I hope not, because that means that perhaps nothing has caught my interest in eye and put a new challenge in front of me between now and then.

Mark Shreve:
I love that you have this podcast that is focusing on the majority of time we spend at work. And I believe I shared with you before that in my first roll out of college, the first year when you're getting into the routine of a nine to five job, I asked a coworker, is this all there is?

Mark Shreve:
Every day I come to this space and I wait here until I'm allowed to leave and then I repeat this. And maybe it was just kind of shooting down that idealism I had or maybe I was in the wrong roll but like what is the absolute worst could happen and take a risk and kind of push me off the high dive and in that moment I decided to start my own venture sort of my own company much like you're doing now and you know what it wasn't the most lucrative part of my career it wasn't the most logical part of my career but it's the thing I'm most proud of because you had to explore that and so now that I'm back in a more conventional role and I work for another company, I'm so much happier where I am because I decided to come back here as opposed to just being put on the conveyor belt and I felt like I was forced to be here.

Mark Shreve:
Oh, I love that, that moment of feeling like you have your own free will and your own choice and your own ability to create meaning in what you do that in a different circumstance may not have felt as meaningful, but then you were able to give it meaning yourself rather than having so…

Mark Shreve:
But, you know, I was running a business and realized that the piece that I was missing was interacting with people. And the best part of this business, which had some retail component to it, was trying to sell the product that I was making, but I was spending all of my time making the product. And so, therefore, the scales were tipped. And in the end, I went back to just being in front of folks in this sort of sales type role, knowing that that's what gave me energy.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I have to tell you, Mark, that you're good at it though you give the people that you're talking to energy like all this time I feel like I know you and I don't know you know you so there's this ability for you to engage with me in a way that feels authentic and um like it's a little more than any type of transactional relationship I feel like you put yourself into those connections so that the people you're connecting with know that they matter as humans, not as a transaction.

Mark Shreve:
That's the best thing you could have said to me. That's great. That really means a lot. But I agree. I felt instantly that we had some sort of connection as well. And it's made the conversations that we've had more productive and more fun. We could be more candid with each other. We can challenge each other. And frankly, that's how things things get done. That's how we really get things done rather than pretend to get things done. And that's how we find meaning and purpose in our work.

Annalisa Holcombe:
That's right. All right. So I always end the podcast with a specific question about mentors because we've talked about this. None of us get here alone. And whether sometimes people don't even know they're a mentor to you. But we often have mentors. And I'd love to just give you an opportunity to tell me about a mentor that has happened in your life. Is there anybody that you want to honor for their mentorship by mentioning them here?

Mark Shreve:
Yeah, I'll stay on this thread of the time I spent two weeks ago back at my alma mater for my reunion. And there were two early career managers that I had that worked in university communications. And at that point still trying to figure out I love this mission-based work but where do I actually fit into this and some of the advice I got from the two of those gentlemen was you know I'm going to summarize this in some words is just show up right when you just show up at some point you never know what story you might capture or an angle you might see but you also don't know what that means to other people

Mark Shreve:
So in your personal life you know it's we're busy it's it's difficult to difficult to think about, you know, making arrangements to be there for somebody else. But you never know what that might mean for that person. And they'll remember that, whether it's attending a wedding or a funeral or just dropping by. But the same is true at work, too, is that if you just show up and you, you know, and you have that natural curiosity, it's amazing where these things go from there. So that's my, that's the advice that's excited in my head the most from that early career mentor that makes a lot of sense now in both work and in life.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love it. It's the perfect way to close out this podcast because just showing up makes all the difference and especially in ways that we don't even know. I love that you said that. I'm going to live with that for a while, especially because I'm in a new community and I need to just show up and meet people. find my people here.

Mark Shreve:
They're probably looking for you, too.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love it. Thanks so much for doing this with me and for spending time with me this way. I know that everybody's going to get just as much out of it as I do. And I hope that we can continue to have good conversations over time.

Mark Shreve:
I hope so. This is great. Thanks so much, Annalisa.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Of course, Mark Shreve was a great, great interview. Mark has always been so engaging throughout all of the time that I've known him. And if you'd like to connect with him personally, you can do so. You can definitely do it at his place of employment, EAB. You can find him at EAB.com. In fact, when you look for him there, you can find him under their experts page because he is, in fact, an expert. So thanks so much, Mark. You can also connect with him on LinkedIn, and I'm sure he'd love to have more connections. I hope you'll also join citizens diplomats. So I hope you'll join us. I'll look forward to it. See you next time.