Transcript
Annalisa Holcombe (00:10):
Hello and welcome to 92,000 Hours. The podcast where we acknowledge that we spend more of our waking hours working than doing anything else in our lives. We want to help ensure that we spend those hours intentionally, that they are spent well, rather than simply spent. Today we're speaking with Nicole Palmer. Nicole is the principal of Rose Park Elementary, a title one school in Salt Lake City, Utah. Nicole has found herself in the local news for actions she has taken to support students in her school from establishing a grump meter years ago to help kids and adults better understand and manage their emotions. To hanging country of origin flags, pride flags and Black Lives Matter flags. Nicole has and continues to work hard to be a colleague, a leader, a teacher, a friend, a mom, and an ally. Her pronouns are she, her and hers. And today, we are talking with her about community.

Annalisa Holcombe (01:18):
So, I'm going to start you off with my big question that I ask every single person as our way to like drill down and start with who you really are. So, it's the big question I love. Takeaway all things, work, school, community, volunteerism, church related stuff, sports related stuff, research related stuff, all the stuff that you do, you can't count that. What are you most proud of about yourself as a human?

Nicole Palmer (01:49):
You just start with the hardest question. So, I'm really happy you gave me the questions and that I had a little time to think about that. Primarily, because it's really hard for me to separate. I'm sure it's hard for everybody, but it's incredibly difficult for me to separate what I do from who I am. And so, after giving it a little bit of thought I have two. One, who I was and am as a mother. And I won't go into that because I certainly was far from perfect and I have some regrets about a few things. But I wanted to be a mom, I loved being a mom, I still love being a mom and that was one. So but the other one I'm most proud of about me as a human is that just before I turned... Well, that's not even true. My whole life I've been a learner and more importantly, reflecting on me and who I am and the person I wanted to become. Not in terms of a job, or a house, or a career, but the person.

Nicole Palmer (03:07):
What are my values? What do I hold sacred? How do I want to be in relationship to other people in the world so that, this sounds so cheesy, like the world can be a better place, right? Like, I feel this sense of responsibility to get out of my own way so that I can be available both to myself and to the world. It's like yeah, so I've done my work and I continue to do my work and I'll do my work the rest of my life. And I'm very grateful, I'm thrilled with who I've become especially from where I started. And I also know deeply to my core that it never ends and that also kind of thrills me. Because I trust the process. The first few times through that process, the dark night of the soul and the deep reflection and the what? Who sold me that bill of goods? And why did I embrace it and make it part of my life? And fleshing out what's mine to keep and what I want to let go of and how I want to be in the world.

Nicole Palmer (04:17):
Those can be some pretty dark days. And I've just learned over the years that there's always a dark night of the soul, there's always it's a process, it's kind of cyclical, there's ups and downs but it's the only way to go. Doing the work is the only way to go.

Annalisa Holcombe (04:36):
Oh my gosh, I love all of that so much and I love that even at the beginning when you said like, this might sound cheesy, and this part of me like this podcast is here for us to walk into what sounds cheesy. Because really like, let's just own that joy or that passion or let's get to feel all the feels about it because it's real.

Nicole Palmer (04:58):
It is so real, it's so real. And even as I'm talking about it I can feel in my whole body kind of warmth and joy and just a really big feeling of love so, yeah.

Annalisa Holcombe (05:13):
I love it. And I love that you talked also about that, like in some ways what I hear you saying is what you're proud about of yourself is digging in and going through it and knowing that it's part. I was just saying this the other day like the whole... We're always trying to search for purpose and meaning in our lives. And it might really just be that what you were just talking about, like the journey of understanding.

Nicole Palmer (05:42):
I would agree, I also think this search is really interesting because I've learned it's just right there, you don't have to search you just have to be available. That's all. I mean, you just have to be available. And because the universe or whatever power you believe in, it's we'll put it in front of you. When there's not a conflict between what you... When you're not ambiguous, when you're unambiguous and you're very clear that at least for me, I can only speak for me. When I have been ambiguous or uncertain, I feel more need to search. But when I'm pretty clear I don't need to search, it just emerges in front of me. And there's also a piece to that about not getting attached to what it will look like, right?

Nicole Palmer (06:31):
I mean, a lot of people search for meaning and they've already decided what meaning is, or what it's supposed to look like based on someone else and they found meaning or whatever. And so that's a guaranteed disappointment and you're never going to find that. I go back to like trusting the process. If you really know you're available to have meaning in your life and to have whatever it is that fills your soul. And there's no conflict about the vibes you're sending out to the universe it will show up.

Annalisa Holcombe (07:02):
Wow.

Nicole Palmer (07:02):
So you better know you really want it because you're about to have it.

Annalisa Holcombe (07:06):
That's so good. So tell me about how that's shown up for you. You're like I'm in a good place. So when you've been open what did the universe hand to you?

Nicole Palmer (07:24):
So many things. And I kind of want to frame this in a book I read a long time ago. It's called Presence and it was written by Otto Scharmer and Peter Senge and two other authors, it's four authors. And really the premise of the book is just there's a future that is emerging. And if you just know that and you're doing your... I mean, I'm probably doing a bad job of summarizing the book. I've read it so many times. But basically, there is a future trying to emerge and you don't need to force that. And the job is to be available for that and then just go along for the ride because it's going to show up and be there. And I guess, my biggest example of that is Rose Park Elementary. I mean, if you build it they will come kind of thing.

Nicole Palmer (08:15):
And I'm so proud of what we've accomplished at the school and the people who were there and it's taken 10 years. And it just, whenever I get in a space where it's like I got to control this, and I got to fix this, and I got to do this. I get angsty and then I know I'm not in the right source. My Genesis Energy is bad and I need to switch that or it's not productive to that space where it's like I'm there, I'm available. I'm watching, I'm listening, I'm noticing. And then it somehow just collides with the vision. And I'm trying to think of a working example for you.

Annalisa Holcombe (08:57):
It's like the alchemist. It's all happening for you.

Nicole Palmer (09:00):
Yes. And I don't want anybody listening at all to think like, oh, it's just magical and golden in every moment. Because one thing I learned from my therapist many years ago is you can't steal it. I remember one day I was talking about wanting something and not a thing, wanting a certain, a feeling or whatever it is like, well, you can't steal it. Meaning you got to do the work to earn that. And I feel that way about all of this. And yeah, I would say like from one really good example is we've made a decision to intentionally diversify our workforce so that our kids are seeing people who look like them. Because in public education the majority of teachers are white females so we're working on that. And I'm proud to say that we have members of the LGBTQ community in our work force in our building in Rose Park.

Nicole Palmer (10:01):
We have people of color, we have many bilingual people, we have even one, two, four male teachers. Even that is difficult to get in elementary school. And they are all amazing. It's not like we had to settle. And it's just created this space where our kids have an opportunity to see themselves reflected in the people around them and recognize someone who looks like them. We could do more but I'm really excited about where we are right now.

Annalisa Holcombe (10:37):
I love that so much. So you have agreed with me that it would be interesting to have our subject matter be about community. And I'm really interested and specifically that's the word that I thought of when I was thinking about interviewing you. And I think that I would just love to hear you explain to our listeners who are some from Utah, some from around the country in the world. Tell me about your, I don't think we can get there without you telling me about your work community. Who are they? Why does it matter to you? Talk to me about these people in this community that you're in?

Nicole Palmer (11:18):
Okay, well, so just for a little background, Rose Park Elementary is located in Rose Park, close to North Salt Lake. It's the title in school, we have got 90% of our kids are on free and reduced lunch. And we have a lot of diversity in our school. In terms of where kids are from, where their families are from, countries of origin. And I lost my train of thought. Anyway, and this is my 11th year there as a principal. So one of my gifts is that Rose Park is the school I was meant to be at and I knew it. I knew it back in the day before I got the job and I knew it when I was offered the job. And so, that feels great from the get go, right? It's like this is my place and my space. And it's been many years to build the community that is currently our school community. So, tell me specifically what you want to know about.

Annalisa Holcombe (12:20):
I'm really interested in people. Yeah, so here's the story that I'm telling myself about you. Which is, so I knew you before you were a principal, but watching from afar because I don't hang out with you. I don't know what your life is like but from afar I see, I feel like after you became the principal at Rose park you began to like really thrive. For me sitting back here I'm like, wow, watch her just like you are blooming. And I like your happiness. And it doesn't feel like gregarious, everybody looked at me on social media kind of happy. It feels like that soul stuff that you were talking. I'm like, wow, her soul is centered, like she's good and it feels that warmth you were talking about before is like coming out around you.

Annalisa Holcombe (13:24):
And I've had this opportunity to like I sometimes see you show up in the news, I see other things and I also see you say, I get the opportunity to work with, be with the greatest people in the world. And I know that those are your students so I specifically want to hear from you. Tell me about these kids that you get to work with.

Nicole Palmer (13:47):
They are the best. I mean, Annalisa I'm just getting excited. So, one of the things that I'm closing my eyes to think about it. One of the things that makes this my job is that I have the gift of being able to love other people's children probably as much as mine. And I think that was just given to me that I just came that way. And I'm going to get emotional every morning when those little people come to school. I mean, they are perfect, they're brilliant. Like they're just such gifts. And they're funny, they're annoying, they're loving, they're nutty sometimes. And my dream and my goal was to create a space where every child that walks through that door they don't have to leave anything outside, no part of their identity has to stay outside the building to be welcome at Rose park. And are we 100% there? No, probably not. But the adults in the building are the people that we've chosen as a school over the years who feel the same way.

Nicole Palmer (15:12):
Who are like, you're just a perfect little human, you're a gift to the world. And it always is so hard when a student has a family or the world doesn't see those people the way that we see those people with all that potential. And so, I get to see them every day. And a lot of our students are little siblings of kids I had when I started there. A lot of them weren't even conceived or born. So I've had like just the absolute pleasure of knowing multiple families for all these years, seen those little ones born, grow up and start school at Rose Park. And lucky me, right? Lucky me. And even the new ones, they are just like, gosh, they come and we're just looking for them to thrive at school. We want that to be the case. So that all the adults in the building are dedicated to making that happen for the kids, whatever that looks like. And it looks different for every student.

Annalisa Holcombe (16:21):
I love that. Tell me about, of course, I told you this that I do this all the time when I'm getting ready for my podcast. I'm like, okay, I'm just going to Google building community because we're going to talk about community building. And literally, all of the stuff that comes up when you write that without anything after is about building community in the classroom, how to build community in the classroom? Classroom community building. And I was like what? So why the big focus on building community in a classroom? Talk to me about that as an educator and why is that so important?

Nicole Palmer (17:02):
So, I'm not a researcher, I just have my like lived experience, right? And I think it's really out there right now. It's like you said, there's a zillion articles about building community in the classroom. And where I believe that it came from is recognizing over the years that school often is the source of trauma for students. I mean, for many years we have been working to become for lack of a better word of trauma informed school, in attitude, behavior, practice, all that kind of stuff. We've been working since my second year there on helping students identify their feelings and emotions and work with those way before social emotional learning and restorative practices were a thing. I mean, they were a thing. We started those way before, they were in the news and they were popular. And now they're here and they are big and we have nine years of work under our belt building each year. So giving this answer from that lived experience.

Nicole Palmer (18:14):
It's hopefully because we've realized that if a student or a kiddo is at school and they do not feel a sense of community, meaning I belong here, I'm wanted here, I'm valued here, that student isn't going to learn. I mean, there's a lot of brain research out there and not just learn, they're not going to thrive. And so, my teachers do an excellent job of building community. And it's hard for me to use community separate from family, each little classroom is like a family. And they are safe spaces for the kids to be if we find out that a student isn't feeling safe at school we are on it. What is that about? What can we do to help that student? Though for me classroom community is just about creating spaces where kids can thrive at school. But you can't, what I will say is I have teachers in my building who have worked in other buildings and other places and they have built classroom community and others in the building didn't.

Nicole Palmer (19:18):
And their leader building leader wasn't about building community. So it was a really isolated little space. And there wasn't like support outside of the classroom or maybe there were only a few teachers in the building. And in our building it is [inaudible 00:19:32]. Our school is a community, our faculty and staff, we work to be a community so that it's just kind of it's the norm in the building. It's just what it should be those days of kids sitting straight in rows and raising their hands and everybody doing the very same thing and being asked to lose your identity or quite frankly not even encouraged to find your identity though I'm hoping those days are gone.

Annalisa Holcombe (20:04):
When you talk about that, I mean, so I know a couple of things come up and I want to ask you about both of them. You talked about doing the, like you were doing social emotional learning before it was a thing. And I saw this lovely news interview of yours from years ago I think where it was you were in the news for having created an opportunity for children to own how they feel.

Nicole Palmer (20:33):
Yes.

Annalisa Holcombe (20:35):
Can you talk about that? Do you still do it? Well, first explain what it is and then talk about like, how if it has evolved or not over the course of the years?

Nicole Palmer (20:42):
Yeah, I totally will. So, it's been a long time and I don't remember what year it was. I think it was for the end of my first year of being a principal. One of my colleagues at the time Christelle Estrada, introduced me to a lovely human being Janet Kauftman. I have to give her a huge shout out. Who was then a professor at the University of Utah. And Janet and her mother who is a.... Worked in residential treatments. She's doctor, psychiatrist, whatever. In another state they had created the grump meter. Which people have seen versions of this around but it's basically using colors to identify your feelings. So at the bottom of that gear is blue calm, then you go to grumpy green, then what's yellow? Caution?

Annalisa Holcombe (21:40):
Yeah, I think that's right.

Nicole Palmer (21:43):
Caution, then danger, then explode. I should know it's only been 10 years. And so, Christelle hooked me up with Janet. And Janet had written for some kind of a grant to work in schools with teachers and an administrator to implement using the grunt meter. And the bare essence of that is what color are you on? And what were your triggers to get there? And how can you get down to calm blue? I mean, it goes way beyond that but that's basically what it is. And that has, yes, they are still hanging all over our building. People use them in different ways. One of the biggest aha is that first year. We had like nine teachers at the time who, because they got paid a stipend, they wanted to participate in using this tool in their classroom. I remember, and we would meet monthly to talk about it. And I can remember one of my fourth grade teachers or maybe fifth grade, she moved, I can't remember she was teaching at the time.

Nicole Palmer (22:38):
We were talking about how the first few months had gone. And she's like, this tool has changed me as a teacher because I recognize when I now know how to recognize when I'm going up the grunt meter and take responsibility for my emotions and feelings as an educator, and I'm seeing the impact of not doing that in the classroom versus me doing that. And she gave this example of, she said, "I need my space bubble." Like she's not a hugger. She's not a teacher that's a hugger. Very kind in one teacher but not a hugger. And she said I remember one day just recently, this was after starting with the grunt meter but before this meeting. She had asked the kids to turn in something they had been working on and they all came at her at one time, or many of them and they started to get in her personal space.

Nicole Palmer (23:31):
And she was sharing with us she's like, "I immediately went up to yellow, high yellow on the grunt meter." And I was able to say, "Hey, everybody, I'm going up the grump meter because you all are so close and that's difficult for me. Can you just take a few steps away?" And share that story with the kids. And they're like, "Oh, sure." And they backed up. And what's so cool about that is play out the other scenario which would have been she gets immediately really grumpy and stressed. And her body language changes, the tone of her voice changes. She might be like, say something that in a tone or even something that communicated that she was frustrated and you know what kids do, they think that's them? So they're like, what did we do wrong to our teacher versus a teacher saying, this is my trigger and it has nothing to do with you. This is what I need from you, right?

Nicole Palmer (24:25):
And just think about the safer space because little kids, I don't care all kids, we all do it. We see someone upset and we assume it's us. And for especially little kids, their teacher's is grumpy, it's like, oh, she doesn't like me. She doesn't want me, he doesn't understand. Where if a teacher can just be like, I have a headache today everybody I'm kind of ungreen, I've taken some Tylenol, but if I'm not my usual self that's why. Oh, wow. How is that different?

Annalisa Holcombe (25:01):
I think that's amazing. We kind of need the grump meter at every workplace. Adults are just like that. I have [crosstalk 00:25:09] in my own workplace where I'm like, it's probably not about me, they're probably having a bad day but I have to get out of my head.

Nicole Palmer (25:16):
And think about like this is also part of my vision and my work is like, think about how different the world would be if adults took responsibility and accountability for their own selves and their own triggers. Learning what they are, knowing when they are triggered and taking responsibility for it. Because what we do when we don't do that is like you talked about [inaudible 00:25:42] we blame, we put it out there, we become a victim. And it just like, it just doesn't work. And there's a lot of pain and suffering because of that, right? I don't know, it just seems so simple, hard to do. And I just want to share one more just funny story about the grump meter from years ago. I have a teacher, a male teacher, I still have him. And I adore him. But at the time we got the grump meter he's like, "This is stupid. I'm not using it." Whatever. I was like, fine, that's fine.

Nicole Palmer (26:18):
And this was a couple years of that. And I will never forget the day something happened in class, I actually know what it was but I won't show that it's too personal. But something happened in class to trigger him. And he left the classroom he said to his colleague across the hall, watch my kids. And he came down to the office just like this, and he opened the door. He goes, "I am on red on the grump meter." And like he used it, and I seriously I kind of started laughing I was like, funny. And then I was like, "What do you need?" And he's like, "I need to go for a walk." And I'm like, "Fine, I'll go cover your class." But ultimately, it was the way he could say I need to get out of here and walk around our track a little bit and then I can be okay. So, that was kind of funny.

Annalisa Holcombe (27:05):
I love that so much. I watched that video and I'm going to do my best to link it when we put this out somehow. I'm going to link it somehow. And probably on social media. But what I really loved also was when I watched that it talked about from you doing that, like the just the switch in allowing students and these kids and maybe the adults to like really just own their feelings and having it be okay. Like that reframing that you did you talk about, instead of them being sent to detention because they had emotions that got big, that you honored that you get to have emotions that get big. And instead of being in trouble for it, you can go to the wellness room or something like, it can be well, and I was like, oh, my gosh, that changes everything.

Nicole Palmer (27:59):
And what's so cool is we introduced the Wellness Center, had it for a few years but it's so institutionalized now in our building and I hate that word, sorry. It's so normed in our building right now that we don't even need the Wellness Center. Teachers have calming spaces in their own classes, teachers know how to say like, we have one particular kid who he has big emotions on the regular. And he doesn't like to sit in the calming space in the classroom because he's also really mindful that other people might be watching him. Even though it's completely normal in the classroom, it's okay to go to the calming corner. There's no shame, there's no judgment because it's so normalized. This friend still worries about that. And so his teacher found him a spot out in the pod where he can go, right?

Nicole Palmer (28:49):
Like we're good at being like, "Hey, we're not going to make one." One thing never works for everybody, right? So this little friend needed his own little space. And that's where he goes. And then he'll come back and he'll like, I'm reset. And then he just starts again, it's fantastic, you know what I mean? To really help kids with that. And COVID has been a setback for what I'm about to say because kids were 18 months without being in a building, or not quite 18 months, I guess we were about a year. But it was a setback in terms of kids understanding safe and appropriate behavior in school. We're at work, we're trying to remind them of what that is for the little ones who didn't know, we're trying to teach them. But prior to that, I never saw kids in the office.

Nicole Palmer (29:39):
I mean, our kids that have been with us for so long they are good at it. It's like our fights are like I said, the first graders right now they're struggling but we're figuring that out. But like that's another thing and this is all kind of all over the place. But one of the most destructive things we can do to another person in my opinion is try and I'm talking about kids right now or even adults in my building. In our building, it's our building, it's not my building. I love it so much I call it my building. But anyway, is if a person is basically yellow to red, that is not the time to talk to them. That is not the time to talk about a consequence or what happened or why it's happened.

Nicole Palmer (30:28):
Sometimes the kids who are on red when they do something or kick somewhere, they don't even remember. That's also in brain research is a lot of times you don't even remember. But the whole point is like now and I just had this week I had two first graders get in a fight at recess and they are both so scared of getting in trouble. And they're both in the office and I walked in and I was like "Student over here, what color are you on in the grump meter" "Red" "What color are you on the grump meter?" "Orange." I was like, "Okay, take some time, breathe. I'll check back with you in a few minutes and see what color you're on. No one's in trouble you just need." And one kid is like, "Can I go play with the sand?" Because kinetic sand is magical. And I was like, "Sure." And he goes in there and just plays with it. And then when they were like, "We're ready to talk now." I'm like, "Okay, great."

Nicole Palmer (31:16):
And it turned out it was just a misunderstanding and they said sorry to each other went back to class. Very different than you got in a fight, you're going to, blah, blah, blah, it's a completely different approach. Because and another piece to this too and this is maybe the biggest piece is I have good parents. But I grew up in a home where I did not have an adult who was emotionally available to me. And I learned like many of us did. Not to be too happy, not to be too angry, certainly don't be sad. Don't let any of that out. There was a lot of shame handed to me when I had emotions. And I absolutely can't stand that for a student, there is no shame in feeling sad or angry or frustrated or jealous, or embarrassed. None at all. Right? So this is part of using the grump meter. Any way you talk about emotion is that they are just a part of being human.

Nicole Palmer (32:18):
And what you can't do is hurt yourself or someone else or damage expensive property, right? Like those are the kinds of things, right? But you can be mad, you can be so mad that you want to throw a desk, sure. You just can't throw the desk, and you have to be able to go I'm so mad I want to throw a desk I need to walk away from the situation and find a quiet calm place. Because I'm having this emotion, not I'm so stupid or horrible. I shouldn't be having this emotion.

Annalisa Holcombe (32:48):
I love that so much reminds me of, I remember years ago, I went to the sharing place and did some work there to make the place look better. And it's for kids who have had a close family member pass away. And they had a room that's called the emotion room and it has, it's like padded the whole entire room. And it has things that you can hit with and you can throw and you can kick the walls. It's just like you can have any emotion you want in this room. Go ahead.

Nicole Palmer (33:18):
Yeah, go ahead. Right?

Annalisa Holcombe (33:22):
Yeah, and I love that you-

Nicole Palmer (33:24):
[crosstalk 00:33:24] padded room, right?

Annalisa Holcombe (33:25):
In some ways we allow as a society ourselves to have big emotions that we can feel comfortable with big emotions when it comes to something like that. But it should be okay for us to have big emotions all the time. I love that you honored that about what you learn from your childhood because we say this about our kids, right? Like, I just want them to be happy. But they are not going to actually really be able to feel, really feel happiness and joy unless they are also feeling anger and sadness and let them all be so they know how to feel.

Nicole Palmer (34:02):
Right. I wish it was just kids who, I mean all kids need that to grow up to be the adults that have that, right?

Annalisa Holcombe (34:15):
Yeah.

Nicole Palmer (34:16):
As adults, we've got to do our work.

Annalisa Holcombe (34:18):
Yeah.

Nicole Palmer (34:19):
We've got to realize, I mean, there were years I didn't feel anything. Because like you said, because if you aren't allowed to show anger or be angry, you even go to your room and be angry or whatever. You don't get the joy of feeling happy. It's just a balance, you got to open it all up and feel it all or feel very little at all.

Annalisa Holcombe (34:45):
Yeah, exactly. I think that's so important. If you'd like to learn more about Nicole's activism in support of young people, we will post links to her efforts and news reports on our social media. You can find us at Connection Collaborative on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. For now Let's get back to the interview. So you also mentioned at the beginning about your school community and how important it was to make sure that everyone felt as though they belonged. And I know that you also have done a lot of work in terms of that belonging. And I'd love for you to talk a little bit about that. I've seen you on the news, I've seen you talk about the work that you've done with making sure that students see themselves there and that they know that they're honored. So can you talk about what you've done in an elementary school to do that work?

Nicole Palmer (36:11):
You want to mostly talk about the kids versus the adults?

Annalisa Holcombe (36:17):
I think both, but mostly the kids like talk to me about that.

Nicole Palmer (36:22):
What have I done?

Annalisa Holcombe (36:24):
Well, you've done all the flags.

Nicole Palmer (36:27):
Yeah. Well, we could start with the flags. Okay. And let's talk about the flags for a minute. Because I think it's important. And I think it's also really important to talk about being performative ally means nothing. And for people of color and the LGBTQ community and differently abled persons. And I read a lot, I listen to a lot of podcasts, and I took a bunch of like workshops over COVID hosted by people of color, LGBTQ people. And it was already my passion and my goal to embody and actually do and not just say and hang a flag. And so, one of the criticisms that was made is you can just hang a flag, that doesn't mean that you're an accomplice in the work. It's very performative to hang a flag. Well, yeah, it definitely can be very performative.

Nicole Palmer (37:27):
If you hang a flag but then you don't examine your own bias and prejudices which we all have, and you continue to support businesses, or do things that harm marginalized communities, then it doesn't matter if you have that pride flag hanging on your house because whatever. The flags in the school we have had for years. In fact, it was our counselor Robin Rain, who I think first wanted to put up the flags. And I want to give her credit. And she did a survey or whatever of the countries of origin from our students at that time and some of our staff. And got the slides up in our lobby. And if you haven't seen it come see it, it's so pretty. And she's worked on this project throughout the years. Five years ago, five-ish years ago, I can't remember, we had our first student who came out as openly transgender, and five or six years ago, and she was in the sixth grade. And it was a really, really interesting story.

Nicole Palmer (38:39):
Her mom came to me and said, "It's almost Thanksgiving break. When we come back after Thanksgiving break she's going to be a she." And I was like, "You got it." And we went to work. We got a gender neutral bathroom. I called the faculty together which I've since learned is kind of a no, no. But it was our first student and I knew she would be dressing differently and wearing makeup and I'm like, I am not going to have this child harmed or called out or criticized. She's going to walk in that door and it's just going to be there she is, right? And so at that time I bought the original pride flag and I had it added to the flags, right? And I think it caused a ripple with some of the people there they are not very [inaudible 00:39:26] But nobody said anything. And it was just there it hung. And then this last spring, upto this past spring when we were out on COVID.

Nicole Palmer (39:40):
I was with a sixth grade teacher and her students we're on Zoom. And I can't remember what we were talking about. And one of the students said, "Can we get a Black Lives Matter flag in our school?" And I was like, "Sure, let's get a Black Lives Matter flag." And for the record, I paid for these out of my own money. These flags were not purchased with any school funds just so you know. So, I bought the progressive pride flag, the one that has the trans colors on it and the black and the brown, and I bought a Black Lives Matter flag and they sat at my house for a month or two before I finally took them in and hung them up. And in fact, it probably took till last fall for me to take them in and iron them you know how the show wrinkly they look terrible.

Nicole Palmer (40:22):
Actually I hung them up without ironing them which since I have corrected. But hung them up, took a photo and posted it on my Instagram is a little video of the flags hanging there. And next thing I know, I have, I'm not going to name his name but a gentleman with a lot of followers. He's a very right wing conspiracy theorist kind of guy calling the school I'm getting all these emails from many of his followers just hate emails, "Take those down, you're harming our students." Threats to come and cut them down themselves and come around our school and march and protest. And it caught me completely off guard because I didn't know how he got the video. I found out later that one of my followers gave it to him. And I certainly blocked her right away.

Nicole Palmer (41:19):
But they just was persecution for hanging these flags. And I'm sure your listeners know all the controversy around the Black Lives Matter movement, is political, it's blah, blah, blah. And I just said these flags show everyone that they are welcome here. It's not political. They're not in an elementary school, it's not the purpose. The purpose is so kids of all, everybody says I belong. I'm here, that I see myself somewhere in one of these flags and maybe in more than one way and this is a safe space for me. Without question if you see those flags hanging you can be assured you're in a safe space and that you're going to be treated with all the dignity and respect that anyone else would be. So, I will say for the record that I got dozens and dozens of hate emails, and at the same time, I got dozens and dozens of emails from supporters including former students that had gone to Rose Park.

Nicole Palmer (42:20):
Including a lot of folks from the LGBTQ community who said, "My whole schooling experience would have been so different if that flag would have been flying in my school. And what that would have meant to me." And former students that had said, "Those flags, I mean, I'm so proud of you, and so proud of our school." And what that means to the kids that get to go to school there both the Black Lives Matter flag and the pride flag. And so, it's been, I wasn't sure when I first got those calls. I was like, "Did I break the law? Did I break a policy?" And I called the district and that's when the board member and the then interim superintendent Larry Madden made a statement. It's like, "We stand with you and you're fine. And you do not need to take those flags down."

Nicole Palmer (43:08):
And they helped draft a wonderful little saying that I put on my email for a while. I did the auto message because I was getting so many hate emails and the email just said, "It's okay, we believe in inclusion and acceptance and we're going to let her keep the flags up." So that was a super... You talk about like, I can't remember what you asked me but something about, I can't remember. But that was the best moment. Like that moment it felt so good. It felt so good to stand up and just be like, yeah.

Annalisa Holcombe (43:47):
This is what I'm doing.

Nicole Palmer (43:47):
This is what it stands for, this is what we are doing here in this building. And it was just energizing. Now at first I was terrified. The first 35 minutes I was like, what is happening? But after that it just felt good.

Annalisa Holcombe (44:03):
I'm really interested also in that because I feel like especially right now in our society, schools are this lightning rod for political statements. And even that what you just described, what you described to me sounds like it didn't come from your own school community, people that are not the parents or the students of your school.

Nicole Palmer (44:29):
No, it wasn't. It's a group of people that were doing, they are the same group of people I think that organize the show your smile, we're not going to wear masks. I don't know or understand how people live in that much hate and anger all the time. That doesn't resonate with me. I think it's really sad. And if anyone listening is like, "You've got it all wrong. They're not angry and mad." I'm like, "Yeah, they are." To just go from cause to cause to cause and to live in that emotional space seems really draining to me. But it wasn't in fact, our Rose Park Community someone had yard signs made that said we stand with you Rose Park Elementary. The community was there for us.

Annalisa Holcombe (45:15):
I love this so much. I'm just so like, I wish you were my principal when I was a little kid.

Nicole Palmer (45:22):
I wish so too. I wish I was my principle. I don't normally like toot my own horn but I'm good at my job. And I love my job and my job is my calling. So, there were years where I was like, this is too much a part of who I am. And then I forgave myself for that. I was like, no, this just is who I am. It's funny when I was a kid, my two favorite things to do were to write, direct and starring plays, and to play teacher. And I'm like I have that job now, right? Not necessarily the starring in the play part but there's that organizational piece, that leadership piece, that systems and structure piece, that creativity piece, and I get to be a teacher and a learner.

Nicole Palmer (46:11):
I still am learning and I'm still able to, because we have no substitutes right now I'm literally a teacher. My assistant principal and I along with our coach we don't have any substitutes for what it's worth. So we are teaching when a teacher is out, we teach. And so, I've had a little revival with that part of my career, it's just kind of fun.

Annalisa Holcombe (46:31):
How much have things changed having come back after COVID? Is there anything different in your school community since that time?

Nicole Palmer (46:42):
Yeah, what we value.

Annalisa Holcombe (46:44):
Tell me about that.

Nicole Palmer (46:46):
Unfortunately, not enough changed. I'll use the example of, we got rid of standardized testing for a year, we did all these things during the COVID year and those things are right back unfortunately. But when I talk about what we value it's like I experience, I see, I feel this collective shift. Our staff always cared about each other and the kids but it's even more now. This idea of, you're my neighbor, you are my colleague, I'm here for you, you're here for me, for our kids, for our families. Like it's like we really realize that love and kindness is all that really matters. And the other things are important. It's important how you score in a test, I guess. But what's more important is the person taking that test. And it's more important to just be human with each other than anything. That commitment is really evident.

Annalisa Holcombe (47:58):
I love that. That's so good. I hope we can see. I hope that that is happening in other industries and other workplaces.

Nicole Palmer (48:07):
I hop so.

Annalisa Holcombe (48:07):
I fear that it might not be I hope that we work at it.

Nicole Palmer (48:12):
I too and I want to network with. You talk about community outside of school. Well, a lot of my community is inside my working environment, like my closest friends are other administrators and teachers I've known for many years or whatever. Because I've been in this job for 21 years, it's hard to have, that's where my community has been. And the biggest source of my support by and large has been, I've either met people through my work, or they are people that I work with. I would love to be in community with people who don't want to go back to the status quo. I want to be in community with those people across professions, across age range, across gender. I want to be in community with those people and continue to imagine the world I want to live in and I want each of my students to live in and my own children to live in. I want to be in community with those people.

Annalisa Holcombe (49:11):
Oh, that's lovely. How are you seeking out to find those communities in which that's happening?

Nicole Palmer (49:19):
I'm taking opportunities to open my mouth about who I am and what I stand for and what I believe in and then people find me.

Annalisa Holcombe (49:27):
Well, I just want to make sure that I give you the moment I love. As you know, I really believe in the power of mentorship, finding people who... And one of my friends talk to me about mentors, you can also have what he calls your own personal board of directors. Like people that you go to help you make decisions. And is there a story that you have about a mentor or someone that you would just to say out loud, has provided you with that guidance or help do you make decisions that you wanted to tell me a story about?

Nicole Palmer (50:01):
Well, I thought a lot about this. I don't have one mentor that I would give a shout out to. I've had a lot of people like that for shorter periods of time. One thing that I want to bring up is I definitely have people on my square squad. Talk about Dare to Lead, Brene Brown shout out first chapter, second chapter. It's like get a little piece of paper one inch by one inch and list the people on your square squad. And I have people on my square squad and I can give a name shout out. My dear friend Hannah de Lata, Cody Colvin, Deborah Candler, I have a new person on my square squad, Vanessa Job. My friend Becky Page. All folks on my square squad, or is that what it's called? Square squad, right? Is that what she calls it? Those are just a few of the people and they are always there for me and I hopefully I'm always there for them. I thought about this because the word mentor is interesting. To me, it's slightly different than people who've supported me.

Nicole Palmer (51:12):
Because in my mind a mentor is like, older, wiser, guiding your life and that's great. Support, I have a ton of support. I most recently have been working with Janice Bradley from UEPC. So much support both as a friend and a colleague. I couldn't do my job the way I do it now without her. But what I do want to tell you mentor wise I gave this some real thought and like what has been the consistent mentor for me in my life from the get go? And you know what? It's books. My biggest mentor in life have been books. From the time I was tiny and wanted to learn to read. They have been my guides, they have been my best friends. I've found so much out so much of who I am. Found out so much about myself through books, who I am and who I'm not. Wonderful authors and people who inspire me and sometimes it's just a simple story. That means the world to me.

Annalisa Holcombe (52:23):
I love it. I love that so much because we can learn. I love that you've talked about books because I think that's right. And is it true in so many ways that some of the wisest people around us are also the people who are avid readers.

Nicole Palmer (52:38):
Well, like right now I'm reading this reading Braiding Sweatgrass, I don't know if anyone's read it. I mean, just the author is Robin Wall Kimmerer, I guess. And it was recommended to me by, a took an Indigenous Studies course at the EU this summer, by one of the facilitators of that. And I mean, that's my guide right now it's stuff that's coming off those pages.

Annalisa Holcombe (53:03):
I love it. I love how much that you're working on and how it just feels like right. It just feels like all is well and safe and good. And even when it's scary, it still feels well and safe and good.

Nicole Palmer (53:21):
Yeah. And even like I mean, the world isn't safe and good and well. So, that's an interesting conflict to be in all of the time is to know that it's really messed up. And that there are I mean, I just read that kids are, little girls are being sold in Afghanistan so their families can have food. Some family sold their five year old to a 55, or a nine year old to a 55 year old. Like that makes me sick to my stomach almost to the degree that I can't think about it.

Annalisa Holcombe (53:58):
Or it's too much.

Nicole Palmer (53:59):
Yeah, it's too much. I have students in my school that are in dangerous situations at home and that's not right.

Annalisa Holcombe (54:09):
Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Nicole Palmer (54:11):
So, I'm really aware that there's a sharp opposition to being able to say things are good and well and going fine. And knowing that generally speaking that is not the case for a lot of people.

Annalisa Holcombe (54:23):
And what I want to make sure that I emphasize is that the work that you're doing is good.

Nicole Palmer (54:29):
Yeah. I hope so.

Annalisa Holcombe (54:32):
Yeah.

Nicole Palmer (54:32):
I'm always open to feedback. Always. I don't think I have it all figured out.

Annalisa Holcombe (54:38):
Yeah. That's why it's the work and you got to keep doing it.

Nicole Palmer (54:41):
Yeah. Sorry about that.

Annalisa Holcombe (54:43):
No worries. I am so pleased that you're willing to spend time talking about this with me today.

Nicole Palmer (54:49):
I'm so pleased you invited me, what an honor.

Annalisa Holcombe (54:51):
I want to thank Nicole for her thoughts today. And for her active dedication to and work for the young people in her school and community. You can with her on LinkedIn. Next week we will hear from Natalie Marie. Natalie is an expert in organizational strategy and team building, program design and social emotional learning. We will be talking about culture. I hope you'll join us.