Transcript
Annalisa Holcombe:
Hello and welcome to the final episode of the Changemakers season here on the 92,000 hours podcast. We added this bonus episode as an opportunity for our team to reflect on the learnings we had this season and to better understand the lessons that really resonated for us. I can't wait for you to meet the team.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Although I do have to say that they had a chance this episode to tease me a little about how often I say "weepy" this season. But it can't be helped. I feel what I feel when I listen to these really impactful guests. I hope you enjoy their teasing.

Annalisa Holcombe:
And speaking of guests, however, I want to thank, honestly, and with all of my heart, our guests this season. And I want to acknowledge their willingness to bring their whole selves to these discussions. To Jim Langley, Mark Shreve, Felicia Maxfield Barrett, Kyle Vander Meulen, Gary Danes, Caitlyn Brazille, Sean Teigen, Sarah DeMark, and Dale Whittaker. Thank you. Thank you.

Annalisa Holcombe:
From me and all of our listeners, we learned so much from you. And now, I'm excited to have my colleagues at Connection Collaborative, LexieBanks, and Sarah Doe join me. Today, we are talking about our reflections.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Super excited to have this conversation with the two of you because we're the only people who have listened to the whole entire season at this point in time because we're the end of the season. So people will be listening to us talk about it and we haven't had an opportunity to have a reflection on a whole season in like a group conversation like this and so I'm thrilled about it. I think it's going to be fun. I have no idea how the conversation is going to go and I'm really interested to hear what resonated with the two of you.

Annalisa Holcombe:
But before we get started on doing that, I think it would totally be worthwhile because I'm always the person on the podcast for you two to introduce yourselves and talk about what it is that you do at Connection Collaborative, what you do with the podcast, and why you would listen to 92,000 hours, even if you didn't work here. So, since the first person I can see on my screen right now is Sarah, let's start with you, Sarah.

Sarah Doh:
Hi everyone, my name is Sarah. I am the director of podcast at Connection Collaborative, so I'm the person who does all the editing and mixing and uploading, etc. I would listen to 92,000 hours, even if I didn't work here. And that's because I feel like the biggest question that I've had throughout my career so far is quite literally, how do I make a job more meaningful for me? I'm in my twenties and I'm still figuring out what a good job and a lying job looks like for me.

Sarah Doh:
And I've had plenty of misaligned jobs. And I think that had I found this podcast sooner, it would have been a great resource for me during those crazy times.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Awesome, I love that. All right, Lexie, your turn. Okay, my name is Lexie.

Lexie Banks:
I’m the Marketing Director for Connection Collaborative. For the podcast, that means that I'm doing all of our social media promotion, and I also edit the video for YouTube. If anyone's watching the video, hope you are. And then for our clients, I am doing writing and design for their fundraising and strategic planning efforts.

Lexie Banks:
And I would totally listen to 92,000 hours, even if I wasn't working on it. I think my initial hook probably would have been that we often interview people who I actually know and I would have been like, oh, I would love to hear from that person. But just generally, I love that it like I love this idea of it being experts next door just people who we know and who we interact with every day but they are also these fountains of wisdom if we just take the time to sit down and listen to them. So I would have probably gotten hooked by knowing one of the people interviewed and then continued listening because all of the conversations are so lightning.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that so much. I feel the same way in terms of like listening to the fact that we don't often have famous people. But you can listen to people with such wisdom who are right by you, they're sitting in the cubicle near you, or they're right down the street, or their phone call away, if you just engage in like some of those really interesting conversations and ask them honestly curious questions.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So clearly we all know that I would listen to 92,000 hours and we kind of know that this is a passion project for me and it makes me happy all the days. So clearly this is why I wanna do it because it gives me an excuse to call up those people who I consider to be experts next door and ask them the types of questions that I normally wouldn't be able to ask them.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So I want to try having more of those conversations in my life generally without recording them so that I can have these engagements with people. But to get to this, now we all know that the purpose of the 92,000 hours podcast is really because we're focused on how we spend those 92,000 hours well rather than just making having them be spent.

Annalisa Holcombe:
We know that time is our most finite resource. We know that so many of us we're all doing that whole what's the quest what's the purpose for me being here so having that out there as part of what we are interested in talking to people about And then using these subject matters to get to it has been really fun for me. Um, has it helped you guys this during this season to actually think about what is meaningful for you in a job? In what way? Like, is there any conversation that you're like, oh, that was something that made me think this job sounds cool.

Sarah Doh:
Yeah, I feel like for me, the biggest takeaway that I've personally taken from this season is that every single opportunity and every single job is an opportunity for you to make it meaningful. And I think the story that I was telling myself in my last few jobs was that, oh, this isn't the right job for me. So I'm just going to check out emotionally, mentally, mentally, whatever, and I'm just gonna clock on, do whatever, clock out, and that's it, right?

Sarah Doh:
And I feel like through listening to our season, it made me realize that that's actually a very like lazy, easy way to just let yourself go about doing a career, because I think that the real challenge that ultimately is really rewarding is if you actually try to make each moment meaningful. And if you like really look for all the ways in which you can connect or the ways that you can express your gifts a little more. So yeah.

Annalisa Holcombe:
So what do you think about the theme of the season, the fact that we're focusing on changemakers? What was, what did that mean to you? And did like, did it make sense with some of the people that we interviewed? What do you think, Lexie?

Lexie Banks:
So when you said, we're going to do changemakers this season and interviewing a lot of people who are in fund raising and impact roles, I could see how it related, obviously, to what we're doing as a business in our fundraising and strategic planning consulting. But I was a little skeptical because I was like, really? We're going to go from interviewing everyday people to doing an entire season just on fundraisers and call it a fancier word as changemakers. But as I was listening to it, I'm like, they still are a bit of experts next door.

Lexie Banks:
They're people who are all in your network that you might not have even worked with them. They're also your friends. And it helped me realize that changemakers are all around us and that even we ourselves can be changemakers in our work and our personal lives just through small actions that we commit to every single day, and that if we look closely, we probably already are changemakers in our lives. And it was really inspiring to me in the end because they're all really courageous and innovating the way that they're approaching their work, no matter what industry they're in.

Lexie Banks:
And yeah, as I said, it's just that I don't need to do some grand gestures or make a political revolution to be a changemaker, I just need to take small steps every day and in every interaction that contribute to the greater good. And that was a really powerful lesson.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Oh, I love that that we're going to contribute to the greater good just by sometimes it just is like showing up. Right? Sarah, what did you think about the theme of the season?

Sarah Doh:
Yeah, I feel like for me, just because I am not super familiar with the fundraising philanthropic world, I feel like all of our guests this season really changed my perception of what it means to show up to work and what it means to show up to work with intention. And even though I know intention was the last theme that we explore to fail, I feel like that theme was present for each and every episode. And yeah, I just, I feel like I really walked away with a deeper understanding of how we can infuse and pension and every aspect of our jobs.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love it. So let's dig in. I would love to hear from you guys talking to me, however you want to talk about any one of the guests, like what I don't want to go, you know, one by one through each guest, but we heard from many people this season who had something interesting to say. So, and we all come from different backgrounds. So what was something interesting that you heard from someone? What story resonated with you? What did you get out of this season that you think is something that you're gonna hold with you? And give me a few, like let's have a conversation about what we liked.

Lexie Banks:
I loved in the first episode, and I think this really stayed with me through the whole season when Jim Langley said we're all just walking stories wanting to be heard. Yeah, I mean it still gives me chills, but I'm the one repeating it is not even my phrase, but it was so good. And I think that came out in a lot of interviews that every person has a story and one of the greatest gifts that we can give is to sit down and listen to it and then treat them with the worth and dignity that they would deserve.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I love that. I was like, oh my gosh, it has everything to do with Jim talking about how you speak to donors, but it also has everything to do with how we walk around in our everyday lives and how we think about what it's like to stand next to somebody at the or check out, that person is a walking story and has really interesting things happening in their lives that we have no idea about just standing next to them, that if we had a moment, I bet we could get, like we could have something sublime could potentially happen.

Sarah Doh:
Absolutely, yeah. And I feel like to go off of that, I was really inspired by the openness that Sean had towards the world and just like everyone he works with. And I feel like approaching life with that sense of openness and just having this possibility in your mind that this person in front of you has something really interesting to contribute. I feel like it's something that I am now trying to incorporate in my own interactions. And I feel like I've already, I don't know, it's just made like life a lot more rich and interesting.

Annalisa Holcombe:
I have to give it to Sean too because I've known Sean for a while and um it is true like he is like part of the story is just showing up makes a difference right but for Sean yes he's going to show up and he's going to be fully present he is there he is with you um and even in the past I remember once I tried to, I will be shocked, but I met with him for coffee months, years ago, and I was about to talk poorly about a politician and he had no place for it. He didn't like, he didn't say to me like, don't you dare, but he did like a, he just pivoted into something positive. It was really fascinating to like, Sean is true about he can find good things in everyone and sees and engages with them authentically with excitement. Super inspiring to see someone like that.

Sarah Doh:
Yeah, that's amazing.

Annalisa Holcombe:
Who else inspired you during this season?

Lexie Banks:
I mean, every single one of theShreveI was just thinking about how almost every single one of the interviews mentioned something about curiosity. Like Mark Shrieve said that curiosity is the secret weapon of people who are good at connecting. And back to Sean, he said that if you're curious about the world, you're never going to stop learning. Life is just going to be a continuous process of learning. And I think that is one of the things that I really you and myself and in other people is curiosity and asking good questions and really listening to the answer with the intent to learn about the person and more about the world. And I love that that came through this season.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Who, Sarah, what resonated with you? What quotes were you like, oh my gosh, besides the couple that you just was was there anyone else that you were like that was so good?

Sarah Doh:
Yeah so for me it would be my name twin Sarah, both Sarah D’s, which is great um but what I loved about her episode is I feel like she really grounds the idea of what optimism can be and I think a lot of times optimism can be conflated with toxic positivity or delusion which you to unpack in the episode. But Sarah describes optimism as thinking about the future in a way that feels achievable.

Sarah Doh:
And yeah, I feel like it just totally shifted things for me because I've just been in a phase in my life where I find myself feeling like I have to be overly rational about things. And when you're in that space, it can feel like there's no room to be optimistic because you're just like, oh well, because of the way that things look right now in the present moment like why would it make for that right but I think that when you can let yourself be optimistic about the fact that you can achieve wherever you want to get to. I don't know it's just really, it's just been very helpful for me.



Annalisa Holcombe:

I agree, what do you think, Lexie?

Lexie Banks:
Yeah, I really enjoyed Sarah's episode. It was a good one. One of the things she talked about that again was a big theme in a lot of the interviews was about self-awareness. And she says that self-awareness is one of the most important traits that people can have. And if you're self-aware or at least willing to be self-aware than anything is possible. And that really resonated with me.



Annalisa Holcombe:

I'm also really interested if we want to take a look at some of the themes. It's funny because this season when I reached out to the people that we interviewed, I provided them with like, I would say, you know, we'll focus on a subject. It could be something like, so I did have things like trust and connection or engagement or integrity or connection like I had some of those but then you can hear some others that people came back to me and said actually I'd really like to talk about and so what was interesting to me is I threw out some ideas and then people came back to me with others and so what do you think about those ones and those ones are Felicia with subtle radicalism. What did you think about that conversation and that like that as an act of change making so powerful.

Lexie Banks:
Yeah, I loved that and her interview was so good and I think I mentioned this and like the first question that we talked about because it was so profound for me that she talks all about how subtle actions and just small acts of kindness, even something as simple as sitting down with someone for coffee and listening to their story can change the world or can change someone's life. And I'm going to carry that one with me and try to be more intentional about just listening to people and giving them the time and showing them that I find them worthy of my time and attention.



Annalisa Holcombe:

What about the, then we had Gary Dane saying, I would like to talk about devotion. I mean, what a word, by the way, when he said that to me, I was like, devotion. I hadn't even thought about using the term devotion when it came to my work, right? I hadn't even thought about it. What do you guys think about that conversation that we had with Gary?

Sarah Doh:
Yeah, it's really interesting because in my own life, I have swapped out the word discipline for the word devotion in terms of just trying to ground myself into my daily practice, trying to be more productive, et cetera. And just reframing the idea of, okay, I am now devoted to this thing as opposed to I need to be disciplined about this thing has made me more excited about doing it. And it's made me more excited about life in general.



Annalisa Holcombe:

I wanted to find the definition. I was just looking right now to look at the definition that Gary had about… —

Lexie Banks:
I've got it. Don't worry. My book of quotes here. “Devotion is love entangled with commitment.”



Annalisa Holcombe:

Oh, wow.

Lexie Banks:
Love entangled with commitment.



Annalisa Holcombe:

And I I want to just sit with that for a minute because he's talked about it in the podcast for me. When he talked about it, he talked about it with both the positive side of that, but also the shadow side of it too. Like, sometimes our devotion to a place or a relationship or a cause can be too entangled with like you you might have commitment to it when you need to walk away like there's a part of it that I found super interesting. I also found it very interesting that as he talked about where he had seen devotion he generally and most often saw it more in like in in terms of the unsung heroes of a place, rather than the named leaders. What did you think about that? That stayed with me.

Lexie Banks:
Yeah, I agree. That was one of my big takeaways from his, is that often the people who are most devoted who are the people we might consider the heart and soul of the organization, they're not the people with power and authority. They're not the people in those leadership positions, but they are the heart and soul of the organization. And if you took them away, it just wouldn't be the same experience. And I was also interested in his point that you can be devoted to the work itself, even if it's just to answering the phones.

Lexie Banks:
And you're like, I'm going to make sure that every phone call gets answered. And then that person feels like they got the service that they needed, not necessarily to the organization. So there are all these different ways that you can be devoted in your role.

Sarah Doh:
Annalisa, did it bring anything out of you specifically, just in terms of thinking about your relationship to devotion and work?



Annalisa Holcombe:

Oh yeah, for sure. I felt like he was talking to me. It was really hard for me actually in the conversation where I was like, this helps me to understand how I, I felt like the idea of devotion to a place of work, to a theme of work helped me understand how I had gotten so confused about my own personal identity and the work that I had done in my past, right? Like where I, after leaving a place, it took me so long to figure out who I was and I think it was from my And I do think like, I had had other people who had engaged with me at that workplace who would say like, that I had heart and soul pieces to myself about that like, I can't imagine that place without you. And then I was gone and that place is fine and it's still going to be fine. It's not about me.



Annalisa Holcombe:

But I had gotten like kind of, I had, I felt like he was talking to me in that moment, and he wasn't but that's the point of a podcast, right? It's like, oh, that part resonated with me. But from, from both the positive aspect, as well as the shadow side, like it really was good for me to hear. So now that that part is gone, and it's in that chapter of your life, what would you say is left? Now I have, I have, I have this, honestly, I have the scars of having overcome like it was hard and I was confused for a long time. But now what I have left is the, the really valid and really important and authentic relationships with real people that came from that time that I when I put my whole self am I all into that work that I did and was like super vulnerable.



Annalisa Holcombe:

I was like me. This is who I am. I wasn't professional me or like I was just this is who I I'm fully me. I got to meet people who were also fully them and I still have great relationships with many of them including Gary, including Lexie. Like they came from that. So that like so I that's the really positive part of that devotion because the the love and commitment was real. It just makes it really hard when you have to leave.



Annalisa Holcombe:

That word entangled in Gary's quote… And he did it on purpose like he like the part where you can't tell I like I asked him about and he was like entangled for me like entangled feels like how you would talk about lovers right like entangled or how you would talk about like it's really emotional that word there's no like you even if you're like entangled in a fight with someone it's like you're in it you know and so I think he chose the word purposefully because of that, like you can't tell where the things one thing starts and one thing ends, it's all mixed in. So interesting.

Lexie Banks:
So, since we already have you on the spot a little bit, can I ask you a question and we can also return to it later, if that's easier. One of the things that I was remembering from this season was that there were a lot of little tips and stories that came out about parenthood. And since you're the only parent actually here, I was wondering what you learned. Like there was Caitlyn Brazille talking about how she talks about dignity with her children. And Sean talking about their 30 minute games. Was there anything about parenting that you took from this season?



Annalisa Holcombe:

Always. I think that I take… There's a conversation in almost every single one of our episodes where either I see something related to how I'm parenting my kids, or they tell me something that I think, "Wow, I wish I would have known that 15 years ago," that I think, "Oh, that was so good." And often it's not even necessarily when they're talking about being a parent, like sometimes it's about how they have difficult conversations or sometimes it's about like being all in and being present.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Like, oh my gosh, how often do we as parents not do that where we're trying to think about the other thing that has to happen next and the kid just wants us to listen to the joke or what it like to just be in the moment. So, And the moments are fleeting. So I took away so much, I took away from one of them, like when Felicia, she talked a little bit about being a child and after her dad died and like learning more about what it's like to be, like to learn more about your family. I like to know that your parents have a whole part of them that they're not sharing with you is also like really interesting revelation that what I think is interesting about that is all of those things that happen in our personal lives.



Annalisa Holcombe:

It's one of the reasons why we talk about 92,000 hours and finding meaning and purpose because we bring our whole selves to work and I feel like you can't pretend that you're not. Like when we say like work and home, there's no such thing in my opinion, because the stuff that happens in your home always affects your life. It's just one life. And so, um, allowing people to be fully themselves at work, I think is important. It makes it more full and also, you know, allows us to sit with our humanity a little and be kind to each other when we need to be.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Let's talk a little bit about some of the others that were interesting, like we had subtle radicalism, devotion, but let's like dignity. That was fascinating that Caitlin was like, I want to talk about dignity. I of course was thrilled. But I love that she said that and I'm shocked at myself for having never thought of that as one of our subjects. Like, gosh, I wish that I was that smart and I wasn't.

Lexie Banks:
I loved her point about how sometimes treating someone with dignity means to disagree with them. Sometimes it means having the difficult conversation because I'm fairly non-confrontational and that challenged me because it goes against my natural inclinations. But if we want to be kind to someone, if we want to treat them in the way that they deserve, sometimes we do have to disagree.

Sarah Doh:
So yeah, yeah, and I think for me, it made me think about how we all probably have different definitions of what dignity means for us and what it means to treat someone with dignity. And for me, I feel more open to receiving everyone's different ways of showing dignity or showing me that they think I'm worthy of dignity and also doing the same like from my end and I think I'm saying this because I just met my boyfriend's mom for the first time and it went great but there are like cultural differences right and I realized that like the ways that I was approaching her and like the ways that I wanted to show her that I was treating her of dignity might not translate in the same way because, you know, of how she perceives it, et cetera, et cetera.

Sarah Doh:
So, yeah, I don't know. I thought that was interesting. Like, do you guys feel like you have different definitions of dignity or what is your definition of treating someone with dignity?



Annalisa Holcombe:

That's so good because I honestly don’t… Oh, I love Caitlin talking about dignity. You know, and I've been thinking about dignity a lot lately because I've been thinking about this work that I'm doing with a client right now that is about when your whole, like, so I've been using the word dignity in terms of like if your whole life is upside down. Um, it's an educational institution.



Annalisa Holcombe:

So when we're talking about providing education to people who are refugees are who are in war-torn countries who have lost everything, I've been thinking about what education can provide, even if it's the ability to sit down and read a book, or if it's That like the ability to have the dignity of a life of the mind feels like something that I want to help give to everyone right like that, like, even when there's nothing that we can provide you that's going to make your child feel safe or be back in their house.



Annalisa Holcombe:

You can have this moment of inside your head there's some safety and there's some knowledge that you know you know something, right? Like that you're making a forward progression even if it's just happening here before it can happen externally. Anyway, that's what I've been thinking about in terms of dignity, which is not a definition but it's a way that I'm putting that word to action right now.

Lexie Banks:
It's interesting 'cause I think of this question in the way like Annalisa tells this story that often in our mentoring groups at one of the universities she we used to work for when we asked students about belonging. They talked about times when they didn't belong. So when I think about dignity, I think about times when I wasn't treated with dignity. And the closest thing to a definition I've come to in the couple of minutes since you asked the question is that dignity is recognizing that someone has inherent worth and because they have inherent worth they have a right to self-determination to determine their own lives.



Annalisa Holcombe:

So well done, very well said. And that kind of links back to something Caitlin said in her interview which is that one of the best ways to give people dignity is to treat them as experts in their own lives and empower them to make big decisions that impact their lives.



Annalisa Holcombe:

I had a faculty member when I was in my PhD program that I never finished, who wrote a book about dignity. And it was founded in her experiences of racism as a black woman in Europe where people had said like, I don't know that there's she’s like, yes, there is racism in Europe. And so, like, she was telling, talking about the way that we treat people without dignity as a, here's what it, here's what it's not. So let's talk about now, what is it, right?



Annalisa Holcombe:

I like that. I think, I And it was pretty fun when Caitlin was talking about dignity in the interview and then I was able to tell her like I know exactly who you're talking about who spoke about dignity because there was clients it's amazing. What a small world.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Let's talk about one of the people that we just Shreve like yet talked much about because he’s… oh my gosh, can I just tell you, we interviewed Mark Shreve about connection and it is so on brand for Mark Shreve that after the interview, he has connected with me to say like, how can I help refer you to more people? I wanna make sure that I'm part of your network. And then I don't think he even talked about it much in his podcast, but he He's a new baby at home. So I'm so excited for him.

Lexie Banks:
Well, to use his own words, you have to give a damn. He gives a damn about you, Annalisa. That's why he's making all these connections for you.



Annalisa Holcombe:

I think it's so hard to give a damn about that many people. Like, how do we define connection in ways where we can actually show up for people. I don't know, it's one of those, it's really interesting thought for me to give a damn enough and to know when it's appropriate. Like you could run yourself ragged trying to give a damn about all the people that you could be helping 'cause there's a lot. So identifying that I think is important. And I feel like I feel lucky that Mark seems to have done that with me.

Sarah Doh:
Yeah, I feel like for me what like on the topic of giving a damn and just this whole podcast season in general has really made me think about how I feel like sometimes we can try to create is disconnect between work and the rest of our lives. And it goes back to this idea, Annalisa, that you were talking about how it's all just one life. And I was thinking about how in each day of our work lives, we're interacting with another human being. We're infusing energy or something into that interaction that is going to impact them in some way we're creating an experience for them we're creating memories for them that might impact their psyche in some way or their mood or whatever.

Sarah Doh:
And there's that rom-dos quote that's we're all just walking each other home at the end of the day and I feel like that's how I feel when I think about this idea of giving a damn. Which is yeah maybe this person that you're having a very quick chat about about deliverables or something maybe you don't actually care about that person as much as you care about your best friend or your partner. But at the end of the day, that's another human being that's sitting right in front of you and that's an opportunity for you to create a moment that could be really beautiful and leave a really lasting impression because you don't know what they might need out of that conversation or what you might be able to give.

Sarah Doh:
So yeah, I'm very grateful for this season for really just like helping me connect that and I'm currently looking for new jobs now and I feel like I have this renewed sense of excitement about what I can bring into the workforce and into my next job and just like approaching it with more intentionality.



Annalisa Holcombe:

It's a good segue. Should we talk about intention? We haven't talked about Dale and his, he's one that came up with intention that he wanted to have that as the focus. What did you think about his podcast?

Lexie Banks:
So good. He's so wise. Yeah. One of my favorite parts of his interview is when he said if you decide where you want to be what you want to be how you want to be your subconscious will take you there and you might need to kind of course correct and redirect and get people back on the ship but subconsciously you're going to be moving in that direction and attracting what you need in order to bring that into the reality. Yeah and then the idea that attention requires a vision and requires clarity in how you're going to get there and you might, again, need to change that plan, but you can't just think, oh, well, this is a beautiful idea with no plan on how to execute it. With no effort.



Annalisa Holcombe:

The Dale interview, of course, was like, so good for me. So there's points of that, which I'm now embarrassed because Lexie's pointed out to me, but I got a little verklempt because when he talked about what he was most proud of, and it was about those mentoring moments where he has people, and he said this thing about it where he said, like, sometimes people come into your life and you know they're going to be in your life. Like, it's not for a moment. You're like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna know that person.



Annalisa Holcombe:

And then after the podcast is over, he said, you're one of those people with me, you know, and I was like, what? That's amazing. But I had also made that like, in some ways, that was intention for me because I had been at a conference with him and I walked up to him and said you may not know this but you're one of my mentors and I like I'm I'm not even asking you to be my mentor I'm just telling you that you already are because I'm paying attention to you and listening to the things you say.



Annalisa Holcombe:

So that leads me to the I had one of the questions for you guys which were were there any laugh out loud moments or shed a tear moments for you during this season?

Sarah Doh:
It's funny because I was going to say we should create a 92,000 hours drinking game where it's take a shot every time Annalisa says something has made her weepy.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Oh my gosh did- Look, did you guys talk about this together in advance?

Sarah Doh:
No, you didn't say it. I'm not kidding, I think you said it in every single episode this season. So that was a laugh out loud moment for me as I was editing.

Lexie Banks:
There's one she didn't say it, I looked, don't worry.



Annalisa Holcombe:

And it was one?

Lexie Banks:
Yeah, it was dignity with Caitlyn Brazil, you didn't didn't get weepy. And that was one I thought maybe you'd get weepy. You were too excited because of the whole dignity topic. But I will say, even though I laughed at it…



Annalisa Holcombe:

I'm gonna watch my words now. I got to make sure I don't say that anymore. So embarrassing.

Lexie Banks:
No, I think it's beautiful that you are so moved by things that it literally brings tears to your eyes, and that you just come out and say it and how authentic and vulnerable that is to say that in this, I mean, this is a work conversation for you, even if you get a lot of joy out of it, to say in this environment like, Oh my gosh, I'm emotional right now. I think that's beautiful and something that I don't see very often. And I think in the times when I do do it, it's often because I've seen your example of doing that so many times that I've learned it from you.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Hopefully it works out well for you and people don't just wonder because you know, I have had I actually feel a little nervous about it because I have heard of folks who get weepy and people tease them like like it's not real like it's inauthentic like it's an act and I don't want to ever come across that way at all and so I'm a little bit worried about it right now because I'm seeing that as like a thread that I'm seeing on my own social media right now so I don't want to be that person but I really do feel it when I'm saying I am I'm I really am.

Sarah Doh:
Yeah I was gonna say and that says more about them, that they're being dismissive about someone's very real emotions, that's how you're going to react, like, come on, do better.



Annalisa Holcombe:

But there are, there were good moments, right? Where people say things like, and you're, you're, you're taking away some of the quotes, but sometimes for me, it's like, I get these moments where I'm like, I think I get weepy either because what they said seems so profound. And I want to actually like, you know, cuddle that for a minute. I want to like separate it out and say like, let's remember this is what you just said was meaningful. Or it, it hit me in a way that I was like, oh, that affects me. Like that's, you just said that to me and I hear it and I should take that to heart. and now I'm feeling something about it.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Actually, just in this conversation, I, it happened while we were talking because I was thinking about that, like the big picture of this season for me, and I probably said this story in one of the episodes because it's one of my stories, so I apologize, but it's whole like, um, so I remember going to a, um, uh, lecture that was, um, not enough people were there at it, but it was with, I've told the story with Sister Helen Prejon and she's wrote Dead Man Walking.



Annalisa Holcombe:

I have her signed copy of her book here at my house because I got it from her that day. But she's like, it's so simple, but she has the story and the meaning behind it where she says like your honest presence, like the sitting and giving someone the gift of your presence of really being there, whether it's, and it's just listening to their walking story. If you just honest to goodness listen to one story. It's the best gift you can ever give someone. And she knows it because she gave it to people who were on death row. And that's all they wantedwas someone to hear them before they died.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Like, that's all we want, right? Is someone to sit down and just be with us and hear our story. And it's so easy to give, too. And I feel like each one of our guests this season as changemakers brought some aspect of that to it, whether it was like, whether it was the Jim talking about trust, then and holding someone's story with trust or Kyle talking about integrity and having integrity with what you say you'll do and then doing it, you know, like, um, to whatever, like each person had some aspect of that, that I feel like it combined that presence and really honoring the people that they're with. In the end, it all comes down to humans and people, doesn't it?

Sarah Doh:
Yeah.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Were there any funny moments? Hard to know, huh? Well, they'll be the bloopers we have of you guys losing your train of thought. It will be the… it will be the, we should do a reel of me saying that makes me so weepy. That makes me feel hilarious.

Lexie Banks:
Okay. I'm on it. I'll have a lot of fun with that. Well, I mean, I can't, I can't really recall exactly what made me laugh. I'm sure there were things throughout the season, but the stories that made me weepy actually were often your stories Annalisa, even though a lot of them I've heard already, but like you tell me how your mom said that you need to get an education because an education meant freedom and not just like freedom to leave for a PTA meeting, but the freedom to leave your job if they weren't treating you with dignity, the freedom to leave a relationship if you need to, that was really powerful. And I can totally see Peggy saying that.

Lexie Banks:
And, or the story where your daughter, I imagine it was Charlotte was blown away by that big gust of wind not literally blown away but she was like “wow, mama” because it was such an amazing gust of wind and that was just so special and a good reminder to um see the magic in mundane moments.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Or the or the story of the boyfriend that I never had because of my friend like did you hear the one in the intention episode where I said like yeah I realized over time that I wasn't attracted to him because he just let life happen to him I didn't have a way to explain it but he didn't he wasn't living with any intention it was just I feel like he was being buffeted around by whatever wind blew one way or the other and I was like that I just decided is unattractive

Lexie Banks:
Gave you the ick.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Gave me the ick, that totally gives me the ick. You don't even have to have a big plan. You just have to have some intention, right?

Lexie Banks:

That made me laugh when you were like, shout out if you're listening to this.



Annalisa Holcombe:

I know, you're a great guy. Still a great guy. Just weren't for me. This has been fun for me like this season because my mom lives with me and has been listening to this season as each episode comes out and she comes in she's in our backyard listening and then she'll come in as if I've been listening to the same thing as she has so she'll just like be in conversation with me and I'm like wait what are you talking about and one of my funny moments for her was just recently she listened to And she comes in and she's like, ooh, I need to go lay down. That man makes me kind of tired. He is just there.



Annalisa Holcombe:

So I thought I would teach Sean about that a little bit that he made my, my mom was like, wow. He is like, when he's talking that he is engaged. He's engaged. I felt it through the podcast.

Sarah Doh:
That's funny and true.



Annalisa Holcombe:

So when you think about these, is there anything that you wish that you knew a little more about after you heard or is there anything you're going to follow up on?

Lexie Banks:
I don't know about follow up on, but I want to know how these people stay so motivated with the current state of the world. Like there is so much going on and it's so heavy. And yet they still get up every day and work toward a better world. Not knowing what the real state of the world is going to be even like a year from now, but they still put their whole heart and soul into it. And how do they keep themselves motivated to do that? 'Cause sometimes I'm disenchanted.



Annalisa Holcombe:

I wonder if there's some aspect of that that there is something to the work that is in mission driven organizations that are so mission driven in that way that might. But like, clearly, I think aligns and speaks to the values of the people that we interviewed like I feel like they found places that matched who they were so it made it easier for them to get up in the morning and do the thing?

Lexie Banks:
Well, this was the other side of my question is, how do you balance that? Because all these people clearly love their work so much. How do they not just lose themselves in that? How do they put down this important work that they're doing to go like change the baby's diaper? I know you have to take care of a baby. So that's a bad example, but like literally dealing something crappy. Instead, you could be dedicated in your time to this work. So how do you maintain that balance?



Annalisa Holcombe:

That's a good question that we could, it would be an interesting one to follow up with each of them. To say like, here's some questions that people asked and we'd love to know your feedback and we could put it as a blog or something. Like, here's some things that we'd love to know as a follow up that we got questions. Shout out to any listeners. If you have a question, we'll go back and ask them. Yeah, let us know.

Sarah Doh:
I feel like for me, I would just want to ask each of them, how did you find a job that you love? Like, how did it happen? What were the steps you took? Let me know so I can do it.



Annalisa Holcombe:

I think that's right. Sarah, I think that there's some real truth to the quarter life this thing of, okay, who am I going to be? And how am I going to live my life?

Lexie Banks:

Yeah.



Annalisa Holcombe:

I feel like you've experienced some of that too.

Lexie Banks:
Oh yeah. I have gone through so many different identities and plans and found both fulfillment and lack of fulfillment in so many of them. And I guess that's kind of similar to what I would, another question I would want to ask them, which is, like, tell us about a time where you just like completely pivoted your life and went in a different direction. And how did that go. Like, when you became the changemaker of your own life and your own destiny when you took the reins. How did that go.



Annalisa Holcombe:

That’s good, a changemaker of your own life.

Lexie Banks:
My current idea of like my dream job and what would fulfill me is completely different than it was 10 years ago. And I'm sure it'll be completely different in 10 years again. And I am just going with the flow.

Sarah Doh:
That's beautiful, Lexie, because I feel like a lot of people don't even allow themselves to get there. Like they don't allow themselves to change and to take the leap 'cause it feels so scary 'cause they're like, "Oh, well, gotta get my pension. I've been doing this for the last four decades. What else am I gonna do?" Whatever. But it's really cool that you're letting yourself just sort of step into the unknown and seeing what awaits you on the other side.



Annalisa Holcombe:

That intention, you're drawing toward you the things that clearly matter. I remember when I was leaving my work as an attorney, one of the things I found, and oh my gosh, I moved recently, so I found a box that had my journal from back then.

Sarah Doh:
Oh wow.



Annalisa Holcombe:

To see what I was saying back when I was in my to ease and having my giant crisis of like who am I going to be and it was when I was leaving the law about to start work at Westminster and I had this list that I legitimately wrote down to help remind me of things that I loved and the things that I loved. I mean I really wrote down like places where I don't feel safe. I wrote that down and I said, at the time, I said my work. I didn't feel safe at my work. I didn't like where I was working. I didn't feel like I could just be.



Annalisa Holcombe:

And so I wrote it down and I was like, then why am I there? If I don't, if I can't just, if I'm not like comfortable, what am I doing? This is not, this is not a way to live. But I saw this thing that said at the time, because I was a single mom at the time and it said places where I feel safe and it said home or wherever Bri is love, love, love, love, love.



Annalisa Holcombe:

So if we get those people also in our lives that make us feel safe and I think every now and then you'll meet one of them I think at work. Like that little moment where Dale said like, there are people that you go, I'm going to know you. Every now and then you'll meet one of those people at work that you're going to know and that they're going to hold you. Like hold you, not like hold you, but you know, hold you. So that you have a safety container with them too. Which is nice.



Annalisa Holcombe:

So what are we going to do for the next thing? What's the plan? What are we going to do? What's interesting about either the world or about conversations that we're having that if you were to think like, I want to listen to a future podcast from the 92,000 hours people, what would it be?

Sarah Doh:
I would personally love to hear more about authenticity and just letting yourself be your full authentic self at work, which this podcast does, but I feel like it's something Annalisa that you could really dive into even more. And I say that because it's a question I'm asking myself all the time. And when I reflect on my career, I think it's the one thing that I would go back and change. I'm not a believer and regrets, but if I were to do things differently, I would have just let myself be my full self in every single professional situation without feeling like I had to mold or adapt my energy to fit someone else, et cetera. So yeah, I think that could be really helpful for people who are still navigating it like I am.

Lexie Banks:
Well, I think that authenticity first requires self-awareness and we did a lot of really good work around self-awareness in our workshop series in the last season, but maybe returning to some of those questions and themes that we explored in that season and doing interviews around them and talking to people about like, okay, let's talk about your identity. How did your identity change throughout your life? How did your identity show up in different areas of your life. Let's talk about your fears, like going back to those topics, but in interview format, because I really love hearing people's stories.



Annalisa Holcombe:

I agree. It might be fun to do our the workshop series in an actual workshop with like three or four people who would be that brave to let it be on a podcast. Because that’s… That's like hard work to do that that work is hard to do.

Lexie Banks:
Another one that could be interesting is like the people in Sarah's situation where they're trying to figure out their dream job and their place in the world and interviewing them About their process and how it's going and how they're failing and where they end up. It could be kind of cool.



Annalisa Holcombe:

I agree that it's not, that it's to show that it's okay, that you don't know too, like that it's not, and there's not, I bet you'll find out Sarah as you think about it that there's no like one size fits all path either. Like, yeah. Otherwise, somebody would have patented that and given it to all of us by now.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Well, I want to say thanks to both of you for doing this work on this podcast this season. And of course, I loved it. I love that one of the places where I feel safe is in the container that both of you create here on this podcast, where I know that not only what I say is going to be taken with care and consideration by each of you as you're going through this and either creating what we put up on social media or what goes out on the podcast itself, but that you're doing that not just for me, but also for our guests.



Annalisa Holcombe:

I can feel totally comfortable that you'll make sure that they're treated with respect and care as well. So thank you for doing that. It's really important and it makes us have the reputation that we have in terms of caring for our guests and treating them well.



Annalisa Holcombe:

So, before we go, I can't help myself. I didn't even prep you for this, and I'm going to do the first question that I ask people, and that's what we're going to end on this time. So it's good because I'm going to ask it to you like the way I would with students when I interviewed them and didn't give them time to think about, which is if you take away school, work, volunteerism, sports, church activities, all those things that you do, what are you proud about yourself? What are you most proud of about yourself as a human being? All right, Lexie, you go first.

Lexie Banks:
I would say I'm most proud of my adaptability and ability and willingness to let go of the places, people, ways of thinking, ways of being that are no longer serving me. I definitely never expected that I could end up doing what I'm doing or being where I am in this life and I'm proud that I have the confidence in myself and my own, as I said, adaptability and abilities to forge my own path and find my own definition of success.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Yeah, love it. Awesome, love it. Sarah, how about you?

Sarah Doh:
It's actually really similar to Lexie’s. I'm really proud of how much I've let myself change throughout my 26 years of life. And that hasn't always been the easiest thing because I've always found a lot of comfort and security and having a very strong established sense of identity. And so as life happened, and as, you know, I entered different chapters, those identities that I'd constructed for myself quickly fell away. And I'm really proud of the fact that I let them and that I just kept going and created space for new ones to emerge. Awesome. Yay.



Annalisa Holcombe:

It's a fulfilling one.

Sarah Doh:
What about you?



Annalisa Holcombe:

Come on.

Lexie Banks:
I don't think I've ever heard your answer, which I just realized.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Yeah, I think my answer changes and that's an interesting thing that I think it can change over time. I think right now I have similar, I have similar I have both like I have a similar I'm really proud of my ability to have faith in myself right now. Like that's new. That's a new thing for me where I'm just like, okay, I'm just gonna leap and trust that I've got this. And that, I did a lot of that this year and I'm really proud of it because I have to choose to keep doing it every day and it's also really worth it. And I think that other thing I'm like really proud of is some of these, like the relationships, they are few really, but they're really powerful.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Like the, to know, and I always tell people this, like to know that you have a handful of really good strong relationships in your life, the people who like love you no matter what, Those are, I'm really proud of those because you have to also choose those every day. You have to get through hard stuff and you have to have what we talked about earlier. You have to have the difficult conversations in order for those to be there. And you have to continue to invest in them even when you've let them down or they've let you down, but you still have to show up instead of run away, right?



Annalisa Holcombe:

Like, there's, like, it's a, it's good. And I feel really good about that. And I'm also personally really proud of how well, right now, I'm learning to handle and respond to and support my youngest kid as they are thinking about them, who they are in the world. I think that I'm, I think that I'm showing up for that. Okay, I don't know if I'm doing it well, but I'm choosing to show up for it every day as well as I can. So, there we go. That's a lot of them. I'm really, I'm feeling good, right?

Lexie Banks:
You're a little prideful over there.



Annalisa Holcombe:

Tomorrow I'll fall down at it, so whatever. Thanks you guys for doing this podcast. This has been really fun. Hey everyone, we hope you really liked this episode and I want to thank Lexie Banks and Sarah Doh for their incredible work on everything we do with 92,000 hours. They are the backbone of our efforts. They make all of us sound good and as you can hear them in this episode, they are paying attention and listening and finding the great nuggets of information that makes sense to share even more widely.



Annalisa Holcombe:

You can follow both of them on LinkedIn and I encourage you to do so. You can learn more about them at our website www.connectioncollaborative.com That's the end of our season. I'm filming this at the reflection pool at my local botanical and because it is great to take a moment to reflect, not just on everything we learned, whether it was from trust to engagement, connection, dignity, subtle radicalism, optimism, integrity, devotion, intention, so many incredible things that we've learned from incredible human beings who might call the experts next door.



Annalisa Holcombe:

We hope you enjoyed the season, we hope you continue to listen, and as you reflect on what you learned, please reach out to us so we can determine what we should focus on next season. Thanks everyone.