Ep 13: Compassion with John Littlewolf
92,000 Hours
On this episode, we speak with Dr. John Littlewolf about compassion. Annalisa and John discuss compassion at work and in our communities. John is a law enforcement officer focused in Native and First Nation communities. We discuss how compassion is needed in law enforcement, collective trauma, and how recent conversations of defunding the police and police brutality tie into it all.
John grew up on the Leech Lake Indian Reservation and is an enrolled member of the Bois Forte Band of Chippewa. He is a law enforcement officer, and during his career his duties have included Patrol Officer, Domestic Violence & Sexual Assault Investigator, and Criminal Investigator. He was recently appointed to the Minnesota Attorney General’s Conviction Review Advisory Board. His education includes a B.S. in Criminal Justice, a M.S. in Public Safety Executive Leadership, and a Ph.D. in Leadership and Change. He focused on law enforcement culture and trauma during his doctoral studies. He has always been an advocate for his Indigenous community, and among other things, he serves as a Board Member for the American Indian Family Center in Saint Paul.
Transcript
Annalisa Holcombe (01:33):
This week, we are speaking with Dr. John Littlewolf. John grew up on the Leach Lake Indian Reservation and is an enrolled member of the Bois Forte Band of Chippewa. He is a law enforcement officer, and during his career, his duties have included patrol officer, domestic violence and sexual assault investigator, and criminal investigator. His education includes a bachelors degree in criminal justice, a masters in public safety executive leadership, and a PhD in leadership and change. He focused on law enforcement culture and trauma during his doctoral studies.
Annalisa Holcombe (02:14):
He's always been an advocate for his indigenous community and, among other things, he serves as a board member for the American Indian Family Center in St. Paul. Today, he is talking with us about compassion.
Annalisa Holcombe (02:28):
I'm so excited. Your interview's been one that I've been thinking about for probably six months. I'm like I really want to interview John because there's so many things. You are the Renaissance man that I know.
John Littlewolf (02:48):
Oh, thank you.
Annalisa Holcombe (02:51):
There are too many things for me to ask you about because I want to ask you about everything, but I think we'll get to many big picture ideas from this conversation.
John Littlewolf (03:00):
Okay.
Annalisa Holcombe (03:01):
All right, so let's first start off with my standard big question that I ask every single person. It's the way to not ease in to, but to jump feet first, head first, whichever way in to for this podcast, which is my big number one question. If you remove any reference to work, school, sports, volunteerism, research, all those things that you would talk about this is what I do, I'm really interested in what are you most proud of? What is your greatest accomplishment as a human?
John Littlewolf (03:37):
I've thought a lot about this question. I listened to your other podcasts, and everyone's so insightful. I think my greatest accomplishment is recognizing this indigenous man that I've become. It's not something I accomplished like a degree or anything like that. It's a way of being, and it's something that was always there.
John Littlewolf (04:02):
Growing up, it wasn't always like that though. There were times when I was ashamed to be who I am, and that occurred whether it was direct or overt racism. Just a feeling of being shameful of who you are. I vividly remember those experiences as a kid, and having them be related to my indigenous identity directly. As I've grown from that child in northern Minnesota to the man I am today, I've learned to appreciate it for what it is. It's not a racial classification. It's not a check box on a census form. It's a way of being and a way of seeing the world, and it's something beautiful and uniquely rare. The tribe that I belong to has 3,000 some odd members, so it's not a lot, and that number's going down. To be a part of this lineage, I see what my parents struggled with and the work that they put in and the things that they had to overcome, and it makes me proud of who I am and that we've hung on to this identity since time memorial. It makes me proud of who I am.
Annalisa Holcombe (05:24):
I love that so much. When you were talking about that, I'm really interested in talking to you about this in lots of ways, but it brings up for me, you talked a little bit about maybe seeing yourself with shame as a kid. I wonder, because we're going to be talking about compassion and empathy today, as the man you are now who embraces this lineage and sees it as part of a purpose and meaningful part of who you are, how can you look back to that child or even look back to your parents and what does compassion look like to the little John who was struggling with that?
John Littlewolf (06:16):
Wow. If I get emotional any time, just I’m sorry, we're getting into some in depth stuff.
Annalisa Holcombe (06:21):
Sorry. You can tell me don't ask me that question or I'm not ready for that question, but it's just really, since we were talking about compassion, I'm really interested in what it feels like.
John Littlewolf (06:37):
Looking back, and I've had this thought before, what would I tell that young boy. What would I tell him when he feels bad about who he is? I would tell him to pause and I know it's easier to say, but be grateful for what he has. My parents worked incredibly hard to give me a stable home. My dad left school in the seventh grade to work in the woods. That's just what they did back then. My mom made it to high school. There were things there that I didn't appreciate then. Loving acts that I see as an adult, like wow, that was pretty impressive for a small town in northern Minnesota to put that kind of effort and just to work hard to give me that base that so many of my peers didn't have. Stable home, chemical free home. It was an awesome stepping stone.
John Littlewolf (07:44):
Here's the parallel with my profession is that sometimes on calls I get to see that person. I've seen that person in the flesh and I've seen it when I worked at Leach Lake, when I worked at White Earth, and I see that little boy and it's a profound parallel. It's something probably why I continue to work with Tribal Nations exclusively is just I identify with that and I have been that child. I have been that kid in those tough spots, and I am now incredibly grateful for all that work that was before in my parent's generation.
Annalisa Holcombe (08:29):
I think that's lovely. If we were to talk about my experience of you and your presence not just in my life, but in the places where I see you showing up as I lurk about your social media or every other place that you are, it feel to me like you are particularly appropriate to speak about this. I looked up the definition of compassion and it said "Sympathetic consciousness of other's distress, together with a desire to alleviate it." For today, for our conversation, I want to talk about that in chunks in terms of compassion that we see in our workplace or how you may have experienced compassion at work, also compassion and how you bring or don't, where that sits for you, compassion at work.
Annalisa Holcombe (09:29):
As well as, I'm really interested in compassion in our communities and what that means for us right now. I feel like it's something important to talk about right now. Then also, compassion in our personal life and for ourselves. That's how I want to chunk that up today, if we can. I have a few questions, but I may mess up on the questions and you might have something that you really, a story that is particularly relevant that I don't ask you a question about, but I want to make sure gets out.
Annalisa Holcombe (10:05):
Sound good?
John Littlewolf (10:06):
Sounds great.
Annalisa Holcombe (10:07):
Okay. How would you talk about compassion? When I said to you let's talk about compassion, I know that you said compassion and empathy. I'm interested in how those two things go together for you, and if you'd like to talk about a little.
John Littlewolf (10:22):
Absolutely. I see them two things as merging over each other in a lot of instances, where it's not just a hard line where one's over here and one's over there. I think of the calls I've been on and you can have empathy and compassion both at the same time, and empathy being that I'm taking on the feelings of this other person, or in a more shallower sense, I'm seeing it from their perspective. Compassion is having that emotional reaction and absolutely like that at the end there and a desire to change it. So many people in my profession, that's why we joined. We're not going to get rich in this profession. That's why I joined, to make a difference and leave things better than I found them.
John Littlewolf (11:19):
These two terms, they reach in so many different ways. In my mind, it's a tree and the branches just intertwine and weave, and you've got other things over here like dignity. You have dignity without compassion and empathy, and can you have respect for someone without compassion and empathy? Those things are inherent in my profession, in law enforcement, that we need to do this job with empathy and compassion. We need to care about what we're doing because these are, I don't know. Someone else's day might be numbers or, I don't know, shipping something. Ours are these lives, these people in crisis that call us.
John Littlewolf (12:04):
Right now, I'm well aware that law enforcement is in a flux right now. We are in a huge state of change, which is great. I think this change has been a long time coming. I see these things as inherent to the law enforcement culture, and you could parallel this, if there's anyone listening, to your own whether it be business or anything like that. Empathy and compassion being inherent to the culture. What kind of message are we sending to the public, to our employees? How are we onboarding that new officer in my case? What are we giving them that they're going to give back to the community?
Annalisa Holcombe (12:42):
I love that so much. Talk to me a little bit about as a police officer, how have you experienced compassion for you as a police officer, or for other officers whom you work with?
John Littlewolf (13:02):
This goes to the root of my doctoral study, which was police officer trauma. Throughout my career it's been the elephant in the room. If we look at each other as peers in law enforcement, compassion and empathy come in there, we are absolutely 100% human. There's no super human nature that says on the job application check here if you're super human. We're fallible as anybody else, and I wanted, with my doctoral study, to throw some red paint on that thing that I've seen. I've seen it in every agency that I've been in, and I'm in my third agency. It's been there and officers, whether it's culturally or the way that they're indoctrinated, it's not an easy topic to talk about. Compassion and empathy seem counterintuitive to these notions of masculinity, toxic masculinity, and it's harmful. A lot of people do it without even knowing that they're doing it. This notion of being impervious, that you're the super hero, that you can take anything. Well, we can't take anything, and I have the science to back that up.
Annalisa Holcombe (14:18):
Although we, as a society, kind of assign that to our police officers as well.
John Littlewolf (14:24):
We do. We do, and we expect that, and I think the job demands that we act where others wouldn't act, but there's a flip side to that too and there's always a whiplash, as I used to call it. I noticed early on in my career that there was an emotional whiplash to these adrenaline calls. It was a peak, it was almost like a roller coaster, it was a peak climb, but as soon as I got home or that night, that would be an emotional backlash and that would be in the form of depression, self doubt, replaying the incident over and over and over.
John Littlewolf (15:00):
I know that some of my peers went through the toughest of calls, and I've seen the adverse effects of that, whether that be alcoholism, stepping on the wrong side of the law themselves, getting into trouble and losing their jobs, and nobody talking about it. That was the thing. Not a pamphlet on the wall, not a brochure, especially in smaller agencies. It was just the way things were. That was what my study highlighted and I think having empathy and compassion for each other is a new dialogue that we need to keep going, and it's gotten louder as the years have gone on, especially thanks to social media, but it's still a big issue in law enforcement.
Annalisa Holcombe (15:49):
Do you have suggestions of how we can, or how law enforcement can provide compassion to those police officers?
John Littlewolf (15:57):
Absolutely.
Annalisa Holcombe (15:57):
Did you learn that in your dissertation?
John Littlewolf (16:01):
My dissertation, I looked at a lot of things and there were broken systems. One of them was relying on these old systems of what we thought the fix was, and what we thought the fix was in 1980 and 1990 is not the same as today, but we are still practicing in those modes. We're still relying on things like debriefing. Debriefing is a concept that had its heyday in the '90s. Now, later studies have shown that debriefing does not work, that debriefing can actually cause harm in these large group setting that we are practicing in.
John Littlewolf (16:37):
When I interviewed my subjects, just about two years ago, they were still practicing debriefing like it was gospel. There was not, again I asked the simplest questions. Have you ever seen a pamphlet in your agency? Have you talked about this? A couple were like we've talked about it but in a debriefing setting. Some outsiders might come in after a critical incident. Mental health, recognizing the signs and symptoms of PTSD were not high on a priority. One guy I remember, he's like yeah, there might be something on the bulletin board, and he describes bulletin board as being a typical 100 page mess of a bulletin board. It's like wow.
John Littlewolf (17:19):
First of all, there's solutions out there. There's solutions out there that have been shown to work in mitigating the symptoms of PTSD. I've had to take them myself. I was having issues and triggered reactions while I was going through my study for my own stuff, and there was one profound one called EMDR, eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing. That helped mitigate some symptoms that I was feeling. I was having some profound symptoms around crowds, which I tie back to law enforcement, but progress.
John Littlewolf (18:01):
Going back to your question, yes, we need to identify the problem. We need to speak to it like it's any other problems. If there was something killing law enforcement officers at the rate it is now, which is number one, which statistics you look at, it's high up there. It's either number one on some or just behind others. It's there. We are not tracking these. If you look at an organization called Blue Line Help, they're the ones that are actually tracking these. It's like okay, we need data. We need to have conversations. We need to open the conversation on this and it's long overdue. That was the point of my study, and it's rooted in empathy and compassion for these people that we ask to be super heroes.
Annalisa Holcombe (18:48):
I'm also interested in talking to you a little about, and I think maybe I'll even bring this up. I thought about doing it after. Well, I've seen you particularly exercising compassion in your activism. I think that you perform your activism in a way that is doing something, not just saying something but doing something. I'm interested in you telling me a little bit. I can describe for you places where I've seen you do it, and I will.
Annalisa Holcombe (19:15):
For example, gathering supplies and delivering them to activists at the Dakota Access Pipeline protests. You didn't just put something on your Facebook page. You did something. I saw you showing up in your homeless community in your city, to actually be there with people and know them. In addition to many other things, but I was interested in you talking to me about how compassion is part of activism for you.
John Littlewolf (19:49):
I guess let me start at the beginning. I guess it goes back to how I was raised. My parents were always demonstrating empathy and compassion in the home. We had an extra room when I was growing up in the house and it was not unusual for a relative to be in there getting back on their feet and having a place to stay. We grew up hunting and fishing and I watched my dad, we were a small family, just me and my mom and dad. I'd watch my dad give away a large portion of what we took in from the harvest. We didn't need all the deer, give it to the larger families, our relatives, and so they could be there. He was always doing these small acts, and it just became a why wouldn't you do that. I guess growing up, I didn't know any other way. That was just how we did things on the reservation.
John Littlewolf (20:46):
Now and that sense of compassion and being able to feel that other's pain, that other's view, whether it be environmental, whether it be social, there's something there and I can identify it with and I can say that's wrong. Something needs to change. This is not right, and what can I do about it. It's people fighting for their humanity. It's people standing up for their dignity, their inherent value. Not to be run over whether it be by economic interest or acts of government or anything else. I've always been called to take action there.
John Littlewolf (21:36):
Take environmental activism, for example. Can I empathize with the generations to come? Can I empathize three generations down the road, that they're going to have to deal with oil in the water, pipelines, all this other stuff that we are doing right now? Yes, I can absolutely empathize with that and I can say what can I do to make this better.
John Littlewolf (21:57):
Take it to the social realm, these other causes I've supported when Black Lives Matter says, "Stop killing us." Stop killing us and can I see that pain? Absolutely I can recognize that. Even as a law enforcement officer, especially as a law enforcement officer, I can say yes, this is wrong, what can I do about it, and I will stand with you. I will give my voice. I will give my presence. I can identify with that and take action.
Annalisa Holcombe (22:30):
John, can you tell me what that was like? You are in Minnesota, so the George Floyd murder happened near you, and you are already active as a voice of, you do something about the dignity of others, but you're also a police officer. What was that time like for you, and what was it like for your community?
John Littlewolf (22:57):
It was hard here in Minneapolis. The day after, it was shortly after, I went down there and saw the site and where he was murdered. I listened to people and I listened to their pain, and it was profound. To see that happen, to see what the nation saw and to think, "Wow, this didn't need to happen," this man could still be alive today and we watched life slip from him before our very eyes. That still lit something inside of me, like so many other people, so many people took to the streets, so many people made their voices heard. For me, I don't fall into that mindset of I am profession. I am more than that. I am who I am before my profession and long after this ends and I retire, I am still going to be that person after. What does my inner constitution say? What does my inner values say? They say no, this is not right. Something isn't right here. This needs to change, and what can I do about it.
John Littlewolf (24:11):
This is still a work in progress in Minneapolis, and I live in the Twin Cities. I live in the neighboring city of St. Paul, but this is still going to take a lot of work. I'm sad that it took the life of this man to get to this point, but we can forget that. We can forget where this dialogue came from, and for that, push harder for change.
Annalisa Holcombe (24:41):
I have two thoughts about that, from what you're saying. One would be how do you think what you've learned in your research can inform how we respond to this? That idea that the trauma that our police officers might be going through all over as a result of this. I just wonder how that could show up in a way that could actually help us resolve, rather than pit us against each other.
John Littlewolf (25:12):
I have a couple thoughts on this, and it goes back to empathy and compassion in the culture. As I said before, we're indoctrinating our new officers. That's where we actually get the skills and the mindset of the job when they first come on. Most departments have field training programs. We do too. We teach them our norms, our assumptions, and what we value. This is either by official title, by, let's say, the official leaders of the agency, the chiefs, and it's also by the unofficial leaders, those long term officers, the sargents, the peers on the job. What are we indoctrinating there?
John Littlewolf (25:52):
Mr. Floyd was dehumanized. His dignity was taken. There was zero respect. You insert empathy and compassion, I think that could have changed. Dehumanizing, being so cruel, and saying someone's life is less than worthy, absolutely, that's a cultural, something that's culturally instilled. We look back, and how could they be so cruel? How could they be so cruel? How did they get there? That wasn't just a flash in the pan. That wasn't a lightning strike. That was a slow storm that built. How do we get in there and change this?
John Littlewolf (26:40):
This where I need people to take a leap of thought here. How well are we taking care of our officers because what we put on them is going to come back to us? If we're not taking care of our officers, they're not going anywhere. Police are not going anywhere, and this is my fear, that nothing's going to change. If we can address some of this stuff, and we know that trauma causes these reactions, we know that is caused disassociation, we know that it causes flash anger, we know that it causes rage. We know it causes these things, so can we try to take care of our officers because they are in our community? God forbid I have a child someday and nothing changes and he calls the police and he's looked at a certain way and there's a rush to judgment and he gets the worst of it? That's a fear in my mind as a Native American man, that when I have children that nothing will change, but that falls back to us today. What can we do?
John Littlewolf (27:49):
The emotional culture of an agency, the ability to have cultural empathy and appreciation for a culture different than your own, we need to inject that into our departments. We need to get this into our agencies because it's not there. I'm there. It's not there.
Annalisa Holcombe (28:08):
When you hear people talk about, it makes me think about the idea of defund the police, what does that mean to you as a police officer?
John Littlewolf (28:21):
I think that's a lot about law enforcement officers pushback on that defund the police, but this job has drifted into areas we weren't intended. We're not mental health practitioners. We're not social workers in the true sense of social workers. From my perspective, if we can divert resources to other modalities, other programs, absolutely, please do. A lot of these calls and a lot of these missteps are misunderstandings and lack of training and a lack of awareness about what mental illness is and how it looks and how to react to it. That's exactly what I see there. It's not a cause for alarm. It's not a call for abolishing the police. It's a call for getting funding to other programs, other avenues better suited for this and working in conjunction with them, to get the services to the people that need it so we don't get hurt, so they don't get hurt.
Annalisa Holcombe (29:27):
That makes a lot of sense to me. I see it as a place where I understand the thought that people may believe that that means we don't want police officers, but I think that it's the contrary. We want police officers to police.
John Littlewolf (29:43):
Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Annalisa Holcombe (29:47):
One of the things you said earlier and as you were talking about your response to George Floyd's murder, you said that you went there the next day, to the site of his death, and spoke to people and heard and in some ways, I believe you really experienced empathy. You went there and felt the pain of individuals who were feeling pain. I think that I see that as a central part of your activism, as the I'm going to actually show up. Can you give me examples of how we can put that type of activity, that real compassion and empathy into our activism? I think a lot of us are filtered from the actual pain through screens of various sizes. I'm interested in what it takes to really act in your activism.
John Littlewolf (30:47):
Let me preface by saying that if anybody's doing anything, unique to them, whatever they can do. If they can just send five dollars, great. That's awesome. If they are not a front line person, awesome. Please, just support, just do what you can where you can within your means.
Annalisa Holcombe (31:18):
If this conversation has caught your attention and you want to join in on conversations like this, check out our website at connectioncollaborative.com.
Annalisa Holcombe (31:34):
Welcome back. You're listening to 92,000 Hours, and today we're speaking with my friend, Dr. John Littlewolf.
Annalisa Holcombe (31:49):
I have another question that I had for you, which is about I saw something that on Indigenous Peoples Day, you posted a photo of yourself at a Columbus monument. I was interested in whether you encountered additional people and were you able to experience compassion and empathy in your discussions with people, or did you have any? Tell me about that moment because I want to bring it back to it's both your compassion, there's some hint of activism there, and there's also the importance of your most proud accomplishment is really leaning into your lineage as a Native American. Tell me about that.
John Littlewolf (32:54):
Yeah. This little story was with my wife and it was on Indigenous Peoples Day. Let me preface by saying I try to practice compassion and empathy. The State of Minnesota had a Columbus statue on its grounds. It was put there in the '20s or '30s. I'm not sure of the date, but it was pulled down last summer. In my opinion, rightly so. The man's record, anything in history that you read about this man is just horrible. The horrible crimes that he did. Today we would call them crimes against humanity. We would try him in some international court, but to have him on a pedestal? No. That never sat well with me.
John Littlewolf (33:42):
We went down there and we're having a dinner, and this other contrary group showed up. We opened the dialogue. We're like hey, we're here because this man's a monster and a murderer and history tells us so. They immediately countered with attacking our source of facts and debating with us the accuracy of our facts and where'd you get your sources. We're like wow, we can't dialogue here.
John Littlewolf (34:16):
It became sort of this weird standoff with these people loving this absent statue and praying before it and idolizing this man. Me being a non-violent activist and disrupter, if you will, I put on some Native American music on my phone, some Pow Wow music, if you call it that. I turned it up and I set it at the base of the statue, and we sat there for a little bit. It was such a weird dynamic. Watching for people pray for this stump of a statue with me playing Pow Wow music over them, and I had to laugh a little bit and it was just like wow. My wife and I actually tried to converse and it was shut down with religious dogma and a questioning of where we got our facts, but that's how we ended that experience.
Annalisa Holcombe (35:17):
I think that's fascinating because one of the questions I have for you, John, is I wrote down that our national discourse is clearly at a very difficult, hyper partisan, and I think your example is also like a there is no more shared facts with different people. I wonder to those conversations, do you have any advice about how we might approach it with compassion and empathy? That is a difficult place for us to be.
John Littlewolf (35:50):
I think if I would have met this guy at the gas station and his group any other day, we would have talked about the weather. We would have talked about sports, but on this topic there was no dialogue. I stress again, we earnestly tried. We tried.
Annalisa Holcombe (36:09):
Do you believe that he tried as well with you?
John Littlewolf (36:14):
I think he tried in his own way, with a religious dogma counter, and we were both just so far off. Yeah. Can I take on the view of this man mourning the stump of a statue? Yeah, I can have compassion for that, but from what I heard, he wasn't coming at it from his heritage was attacked or that he was willing to look at any of the atrocities that this man had committed. He was just there because something that he idolized and something that his dogma told him to honor was attacked.
Annalisa Holcombe (36:52):
Fascinating.
John Littlewolf (36:53):
Yeah.
Annalisa Holcombe (36:54):
Can you tell me, and I don't even know how to, this isn't a question that I wrote down, but I'm interested in it and I think it has to do with that conversation you were having and really the space that you hold as a Native American man. What is it like for you, as you talked about there are 3,000 people in your tribe, but I also feel like you bring such compassion to how you hold yourself in the world, and I just wonder what does that feel like?
John Littlewolf (37:42):
I think I see the world differently, of course, as other people just because my experiences were different, but I also recognize that lineage that I talked about, that there's something bigger than me. It's not just about John and John's needs. There's selflessness. In the indigenous community there's selflessness. There's caring. There's giving. There's beauty. There's this whole other lens to see the world in. As I've gotten older and I've recognized colonization for what it is and I recognize the socioeconomic system for what it is and I see these things, and I lean more into my culture and it feels like home. It feels right and just and it's like okay, this is where I belong and this is how I should see the world.
Annalisa Holcombe (38:36):
What does compassion look like in your personal relationships, first, and then the second part of that question is, what can compassion look like for yourself? How can we be compassionate to ourselves?
John Littlewolf (38:49):
Oh wow. That's been a shortcoming of mine, that pause for myself, and it wasn't until my wife pointed out some things to me that I was suffering that I didn't know. I knew that there were issues from my experiences on the job, but I can take that moment for somebody else but can I take it for myself. Even recently, we were vaccinated at work and I'm like can we give it to someone. Yeah, they're like no, you're a first responder. You need to take this because you're going to spread the virus.
John Littlewolf (39:29):
I think this comes with a lot of people with my mindset that okay, we need reminders to take moments for ourselves, to take care for ourselves. I'm ever grateful for my wife for reminding me one day at an apple orchard that I needed seek help for not only myself, but for our relationship, that I was having an adverse reaction to a normal situation.
Annalisa Holcombe (39:54):
Wow. I think that that's important, the compassion we both show and experience from others. Do you have an example of a moment of compassion that effected you? Where you were shown compassion? John Littlewolf (40:13):
Absolutely. There's been, throughout my life, there's been these people that have interjected in my life and where I was going one way and I meet this person and they do something that they don't have to do. They take time or space or an act of kindness that they did not have to do, by job title or otherwise, and it sends my like in a different trajectory. There was a professor in college, Dr. Annie Henry, who took that moment for me, and that shot me into a different direction. Gave me the grades that I needed to eventually get into grad school later on. It was a building of a relationship there, taking time that she didn't have to do, but she did. These other people in my life that have just come in and shown me love and tolerance.
John Littlewolf (41:09):
I'm a part of another fellowship that in anonymous, but in that fellowship we practice love and tolerance. Alex is one of my great change agents in my life, and he showed me this new way of life. Yeah, he didn't have to and now I have to give that away. I have to give that away if I want to keep it. It's kind of how that works.
Annalisa Holcombe (41:35):
You're working at it all the time.
John Littlewolf (41:37):
Yeah.
Annalisa Holcombe (41:37):
That we practice that compassion all the time. Tell me about, you wrote a book of poetry, and I'm interested, I just, by the way, love the juxtaposition of what we talked about earlier. the expectation of almost heroic, toxic, masculinity that we give to police officers in our society juxtaposed with what our society may think of as more feminine and soft as the poetic world. I think that you represent such a good example that protection and, I don't know. It's the way you approach your life, I think, that is the role of providing dignity and compassion to humans I think might be informed by the way that you express yourself through poetry. I'm just really interested in you talking to me about how does compassion show up in poetry that you write.
John Littlewolf (42:52):
Interesting. Well, the source of the poetry is definitely my mother.
Annalisa Holcombe (43:01):
Really?
John Littlewolf (43:02):
We were not a patriarchal family. We were matriarchal, and my mother was the alpha in the household and rightly so. I found out later after she passed, I was going through some of her things and there was some poetry in there. That, for me, hit me right in my chest.
Annalisa Holcombe (43:18):
I bet. Wow. John Littlewolf (43:21):
There it is. That's the source because I always wondered why, where did that come from, and I believe that she passed that on. I've learned to embrace it. It was always there, and it was a way that I didn't always have the vocal tools to express it. I couldn't always find the words, but if you asked me to write it, if you asked me to describe it in word, write it down, type it out, I could do that and the floodgates were open. I can still do that. That's my best mode of communication. I think recognizing that in my 20s and embracing it is not something to be ashamed of, but to be shared. It's like okay, I'm recognizing that not everybody thinks like this. It's the only way I know how to think. Okay, if they're telling me that this is something to share and it's there, okay, let's share it.
Annalisa Holcombe (44:15):
That's awesome. It's also an act of courage as well because I believe that poetry, when you read it, is this opening into people's souls in ways that you wouldn't otherwise get.
John Littlewolf (44:27):
Oh my god, yes. It's unedited. It's raw. If you want to get away, the BS, scrap away the BS, there it is. You read the essence of that person. You read who they are, and what's why I love it. It's just, yeah.
Annalisa Holcombe (44:45):
Well, I love it. I think it's just a really, I think the poetry is a really important way for us to exercise our empathy because often poetry, it's what you said, we feel it without all of the other stuff around it. It's a way to connect deeply with somebody so quickly in ways you would otherwise it would take years to get to.
John Littlewolf (45:12):
Absolutely, and it's universal. It can cross all those imaginary things that we've set up.
Annalisa Holcombe (45:18):
Well, you talked about this a little bit before, but in addition to maybe this professor that you had, do you have any stories about a mentor who could have influenced your life? Mentorship matters to me a lot, but I have lots of different ideas about what mentors might look like in our lives. Is there anybody that you particularly wanted to talk about that you haven't mentioned already?
John Littlewolf (45:51):
No. There's been a number of mentors I've had. It's been a lot, and a lot of them probably didn't know that I was watching them. Taking things from situations, whether it be ideas, practices, just something I reach out and put in my pocket. I'm like wow, I want to practice that. That's how I want to be. Throughout my law enforcement career, I've had awesome native officers mentor me.
Annalisa Holcombe (46:17):
That's lovely.
John Littlewolf (46:18):
Yeah. From day one all the way, well still currently, it's an ongoing thing. You really understand the depth of compassion and empathy where you learn these things, like the power that you're entrusted with, you understand that if I write this person a citation and school says I can do it, the law says I can do it, I don't have to do it, I have discretion, and you realize that this citation maybe a bill for that person for that month and I'm sure, other situations, I'm sure if this person could get their headlight fixed, they would. I'm sure if they could fix that taillight or weren't stalled out on the side of the road broke down, they would do something about it. You realize that you have an obligation there to think bigger, to think bigger than just that moment, to realize that this is a person, this is a part of your community, and it's going to be bigger than that five minute citation that you're going to write. You're going to impact this person's life.
Annalisa Holcombe (47:23):
I think that's something that we can apply to all of our work and professional situations, though, is just what you said. Regardless of the fact that I'm not in a position to give anyone a citation, but I might be in a position to interact with a colleague in a way that embraces their humanity and sees them as a whole person that day.
John Littlewolf (47:44):
Absolutely. Absolutely. This is not unique to law enforcement. There's going to be instances where people have an edge in power or an opportunity to do something, and it can go one way or it can go another. What's going to be best for that person in the end? What's going to be best for the community in the end? It goes back to what's driving our organizations. Is it going to be a sense of empathy and compassion? Is it going to be a bottom line? Dollar signs?
Annalisa Holcombe (48:15):
I think that's right. It is what you value because even what you talked about, if your law enforcement agency is saying that we do value the number of citations you give out, then it will affect the way that you handle that particular situation.
John Littlewolf (48:29):
Absolutely. Absolutely. How are we interacting with the public that we serve? It does. The messages that leaders unofficial send to the new officers, the ones that are on the front line, absolutely, that message matters.
Annalisa Holcombe (48:45):
Thank you, my friend.
John Littlewolf (48:47):
Thank you.
Annalisa Holcombe (48:47):
See you later.
Annalisa Holcombe (49:05):
I am so grateful to John for his thoughtfulness and his wisdom. Since our interview, he was appointed to the Minnesota Attorney General's Conviction Review Advisory Board. You can learn more about his work by connecting with him on LinkedIn, and I encourage you to learn more about his book of poetry, entitled Send on Good Reads. I purchased it, and I can tell you it's beautiful.
Annalisa Holcombe (49:31):
Next week, we will be speaking with Engels Tejeda. Engels is a trial lawyer, a diversity and inclusion advocate, and a naturalized US citizen. We will be speaking with him about empathy.
Annalisa Holcombe (49:57):
As always, thank you for listening to 92,000 Hours. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a review. We really appreciate your support. If you're interested in integrating the personal and profession through authentic conversation, just like you heard on our episode today, please check out our work at Connection Collaborative. You can find us at connectioncollaborative.com or send me an email at annalisa@connectioncollaborative.com.
Annalisa Holcombe (50:25):
Thank you and see you next week on 92,000 Hours.
Annalisa Holcombe (50:28):
92,000 Hours is made possible by Connection Collaborative. This episode was produced and edited by Breanna Steggell, Lexie Banks is our marketing director, and I'm your host, Annalisa Holcombe.
Annalisa Holcombe (01:33):
This week, we are speaking with Dr. John Littlewolf. John grew up on the Leach Lake Indian Reservation and is an enrolled member of the Bois Forte Band of Chippewa. He is a law enforcement officer, and during his career, his duties have included patrol officer, domestic violence and sexual assault investigator, and criminal investigator. His education includes a bachelors degree in criminal justice, a masters in public safety executive leadership, and a PhD in leadership and change. He focused on law enforcement culture and trauma during his doctoral studies.
Annalisa Holcombe (02:14):
He's always been an advocate for his indigenous community and, among other things, he serves as a board member for the American Indian Family Center in St. Paul. Today, he is talking with us about compassion.
Annalisa Holcombe (02:28):
I'm so excited. Your interview's been one that I've been thinking about for probably six months. I'm like I really want to interview John because there's so many things. You are the Renaissance man that I know.
John Littlewolf (02:48):
Oh, thank you.
Annalisa Holcombe (02:51):
There are too many things for me to ask you about because I want to ask you about everything, but I think we'll get to many big picture ideas from this conversation.
John Littlewolf (03:00):
Okay.
Annalisa Holcombe (03:01):
All right, so let's first start off with my standard big question that I ask every single person. It's the way to not ease in to, but to jump feet first, head first, whichever way in to for this podcast, which is my big number one question. If you remove any reference to work, school, sports, volunteerism, research, all those things that you would talk about this is what I do, I'm really interested in what are you most proud of? What is your greatest accomplishment as a human?
John Littlewolf (03:37):
I've thought a lot about this question. I listened to your other podcasts, and everyone's so insightful. I think my greatest accomplishment is recognizing this indigenous man that I've become. It's not something I accomplished like a degree or anything like that. It's a way of being, and it's something that was always there.
John Littlewolf (04:02):
Growing up, it wasn't always like that though. There were times when I was ashamed to be who I am, and that occurred whether it was direct or overt racism. Just a feeling of being shameful of who you are. I vividly remember those experiences as a kid, and having them be related to my indigenous identity directly. As I've grown from that child in northern Minnesota to the man I am today, I've learned to appreciate it for what it is. It's not a racial classification. It's not a check box on a census form. It's a way of being and a way of seeing the world, and it's something beautiful and uniquely rare. The tribe that I belong to has 3,000 some odd members, so it's not a lot, and that number's going down. To be a part of this lineage, I see what my parents struggled with and the work that they put in and the things that they had to overcome, and it makes me proud of who I am and that we've hung on to this identity since time memorial. It makes me proud of who I am.
Annalisa Holcombe (05:24):
I love that so much. When you were talking about that, I'm really interested in talking to you about this in lots of ways, but it brings up for me, you talked a little bit about maybe seeing yourself with shame as a kid. I wonder, because we're going to be talking about compassion and empathy today, as the man you are now who embraces this lineage and sees it as part of a purpose and meaningful part of who you are, how can you look back to that child or even look back to your parents and what does compassion look like to the little John who was struggling with that?
John Littlewolf (06:16):
Wow. If I get emotional any time, just I’m sorry, we're getting into some in depth stuff.
Annalisa Holcombe (06:21):
Sorry. You can tell me don't ask me that question or I'm not ready for that question, but it's just really, since we were talking about compassion, I'm really interested in what it feels like.
John Littlewolf (06:37):
Looking back, and I've had this thought before, what would I tell that young boy. What would I tell him when he feels bad about who he is? I would tell him to pause and I know it's easier to say, but be grateful for what he has. My parents worked incredibly hard to give me a stable home. My dad left school in the seventh grade to work in the woods. That's just what they did back then. My mom made it to high school. There were things there that I didn't appreciate then. Loving acts that I see as an adult, like wow, that was pretty impressive for a small town in northern Minnesota to put that kind of effort and just to work hard to give me that base that so many of my peers didn't have. Stable home, chemical free home. It was an awesome stepping stone.
John Littlewolf (07:44):
Here's the parallel with my profession is that sometimes on calls I get to see that person. I've seen that person in the flesh and I've seen it when I worked at Leach Lake, when I worked at White Earth, and I see that little boy and it's a profound parallel. It's something probably why I continue to work with Tribal Nations exclusively is just I identify with that and I have been that child. I have been that kid in those tough spots, and I am now incredibly grateful for all that work that was before in my parent's generation.
Annalisa Holcombe (08:29):
I think that's lovely. If we were to talk about my experience of you and your presence not just in my life, but in the places where I see you showing up as I lurk about your social media or every other place that you are, it feel to me like you are particularly appropriate to speak about this. I looked up the definition of compassion and it said "Sympathetic consciousness of other's distress, together with a desire to alleviate it." For today, for our conversation, I want to talk about that in chunks in terms of compassion that we see in our workplace or how you may have experienced compassion at work, also compassion and how you bring or don't, where that sits for you, compassion at work.
Annalisa Holcombe (09:29):
As well as, I'm really interested in compassion in our communities and what that means for us right now. I feel like it's something important to talk about right now. Then also, compassion in our personal life and for ourselves. That's how I want to chunk that up today, if we can. I have a few questions, but I may mess up on the questions and you might have something that you really, a story that is particularly relevant that I don't ask you a question about, but I want to make sure gets out.
Annalisa Holcombe (10:05):
Sound good?
John Littlewolf (10:06):
Sounds great.
Annalisa Holcombe (10:07):
Okay. How would you talk about compassion? When I said to you let's talk about compassion, I know that you said compassion and empathy. I'm interested in how those two things go together for you, and if you'd like to talk about a little.
John Littlewolf (10:22):
Absolutely. I see them two things as merging over each other in a lot of instances, where it's not just a hard line where one's over here and one's over there. I think of the calls I've been on and you can have empathy and compassion both at the same time, and empathy being that I'm taking on the feelings of this other person, or in a more shallower sense, I'm seeing it from their perspective. Compassion is having that emotional reaction and absolutely like that at the end there and a desire to change it. So many people in my profession, that's why we joined. We're not going to get rich in this profession. That's why I joined, to make a difference and leave things better than I found them.
John Littlewolf (11:19):
These two terms, they reach in so many different ways. In my mind, it's a tree and the branches just intertwine and weave, and you've got other things over here like dignity. You have dignity without compassion and empathy, and can you have respect for someone without compassion and empathy? Those things are inherent in my profession, in law enforcement, that we need to do this job with empathy and compassion. We need to care about what we're doing because these are, I don't know. Someone else's day might be numbers or, I don't know, shipping something. Ours are these lives, these people in crisis that call us.
John Littlewolf (12:04):
Right now, I'm well aware that law enforcement is in a flux right now. We are in a huge state of change, which is great. I think this change has been a long time coming. I see these things as inherent to the law enforcement culture, and you could parallel this, if there's anyone listening, to your own whether it be business or anything like that. Empathy and compassion being inherent to the culture. What kind of message are we sending to the public, to our employees? How are we onboarding that new officer in my case? What are we giving them that they're going to give back to the community?
Annalisa Holcombe (12:42):
I love that so much. Talk to me a little bit about as a police officer, how have you experienced compassion for you as a police officer, or for other officers whom you work with?
John Littlewolf (13:02):
This goes to the root of my doctoral study, which was police officer trauma. Throughout my career it's been the elephant in the room. If we look at each other as peers in law enforcement, compassion and empathy come in there, we are absolutely 100% human. There's no super human nature that says on the job application check here if you're super human. We're fallible as anybody else, and I wanted, with my doctoral study, to throw some red paint on that thing that I've seen. I've seen it in every agency that I've been in, and I'm in my third agency. It's been there and officers, whether it's culturally or the way that they're indoctrinated, it's not an easy topic to talk about. Compassion and empathy seem counterintuitive to these notions of masculinity, toxic masculinity, and it's harmful. A lot of people do it without even knowing that they're doing it. This notion of being impervious, that you're the super hero, that you can take anything. Well, we can't take anything, and I have the science to back that up.
Annalisa Holcombe (14:18):
Although we, as a society, kind of assign that to our police officers as well.
John Littlewolf (14:24):
We do. We do, and we expect that, and I think the job demands that we act where others wouldn't act, but there's a flip side to that too and there's always a whiplash, as I used to call it. I noticed early on in my career that there was an emotional whiplash to these adrenaline calls. It was a peak, it was almost like a roller coaster, it was a peak climb, but as soon as I got home or that night, that would be an emotional backlash and that would be in the form of depression, self doubt, replaying the incident over and over and over.
John Littlewolf (15:00):
I know that some of my peers went through the toughest of calls, and I've seen the adverse effects of that, whether that be alcoholism, stepping on the wrong side of the law themselves, getting into trouble and losing their jobs, and nobody talking about it. That was the thing. Not a pamphlet on the wall, not a brochure, especially in smaller agencies. It was just the way things were. That was what my study highlighted and I think having empathy and compassion for each other is a new dialogue that we need to keep going, and it's gotten louder as the years have gone on, especially thanks to social media, but it's still a big issue in law enforcement.
Annalisa Holcombe (15:49):
Do you have suggestions of how we can, or how law enforcement can provide compassion to those police officers?
John Littlewolf (15:57):
Absolutely.
Annalisa Holcombe (15:57):
Did you learn that in your dissertation?
John Littlewolf (16:01):
My dissertation, I looked at a lot of things and there were broken systems. One of them was relying on these old systems of what we thought the fix was, and what we thought the fix was in 1980 and 1990 is not the same as today, but we are still practicing in those modes. We're still relying on things like debriefing. Debriefing is a concept that had its heyday in the '90s. Now, later studies have shown that debriefing does not work, that debriefing can actually cause harm in these large group setting that we are practicing in.
John Littlewolf (16:37):
When I interviewed my subjects, just about two years ago, they were still practicing debriefing like it was gospel. There was not, again I asked the simplest questions. Have you ever seen a pamphlet in your agency? Have you talked about this? A couple were like we've talked about it but in a debriefing setting. Some outsiders might come in after a critical incident. Mental health, recognizing the signs and symptoms of PTSD were not high on a priority. One guy I remember, he's like yeah, there might be something on the bulletin board, and he describes bulletin board as being a typical 100 page mess of a bulletin board. It's like wow.
John Littlewolf (17:19):
First of all, there's solutions out there. There's solutions out there that have been shown to work in mitigating the symptoms of PTSD. I've had to take them myself. I was having issues and triggered reactions while I was going through my study for my own stuff, and there was one profound one called EMDR, eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing. That helped mitigate some symptoms that I was feeling. I was having some profound symptoms around crowds, which I tie back to law enforcement, but progress.
John Littlewolf (18:01):
Going back to your question, yes, we need to identify the problem. We need to speak to it like it's any other problems. If there was something killing law enforcement officers at the rate it is now, which is number one, which statistics you look at, it's high up there. It's either number one on some or just behind others. It's there. We are not tracking these. If you look at an organization called Blue Line Help, they're the ones that are actually tracking these. It's like okay, we need data. We need to have conversations. We need to open the conversation on this and it's long overdue. That was the point of my study, and it's rooted in empathy and compassion for these people that we ask to be super heroes.
Annalisa Holcombe (18:48):
I'm also interested in talking to you a little about, and I think maybe I'll even bring this up. I thought about doing it after. Well, I've seen you particularly exercising compassion in your activism. I think that you perform your activism in a way that is doing something, not just saying something but doing something. I'm interested in you telling me a little bit. I can describe for you places where I've seen you do it, and I will.
Annalisa Holcombe (19:15):
For example, gathering supplies and delivering them to activists at the Dakota Access Pipeline protests. You didn't just put something on your Facebook page. You did something. I saw you showing up in your homeless community in your city, to actually be there with people and know them. In addition to many other things, but I was interested in you talking to me about how compassion is part of activism for you.
John Littlewolf (19:49):
I guess let me start at the beginning. I guess it goes back to how I was raised. My parents were always demonstrating empathy and compassion in the home. We had an extra room when I was growing up in the house and it was not unusual for a relative to be in there getting back on their feet and having a place to stay. We grew up hunting and fishing and I watched my dad, we were a small family, just me and my mom and dad. I'd watch my dad give away a large portion of what we took in from the harvest. We didn't need all the deer, give it to the larger families, our relatives, and so they could be there. He was always doing these small acts, and it just became a why wouldn't you do that. I guess growing up, I didn't know any other way. That was just how we did things on the reservation.
John Littlewolf (20:46):
Now and that sense of compassion and being able to feel that other's pain, that other's view, whether it be environmental, whether it be social, there's something there and I can identify it with and I can say that's wrong. Something needs to change. This is not right, and what can I do about it. It's people fighting for their humanity. It's people standing up for their dignity, their inherent value. Not to be run over whether it be by economic interest or acts of government or anything else. I've always been called to take action there.
John Littlewolf (21:36):
Take environmental activism, for example. Can I empathize with the generations to come? Can I empathize three generations down the road, that they're going to have to deal with oil in the water, pipelines, all this other stuff that we are doing right now? Yes, I can absolutely empathize with that and I can say what can I do to make this better.
John Littlewolf (21:57):
Take it to the social realm, these other causes I've supported when Black Lives Matter says, "Stop killing us." Stop killing us and can I see that pain? Absolutely I can recognize that. Even as a law enforcement officer, especially as a law enforcement officer, I can say yes, this is wrong, what can I do about it, and I will stand with you. I will give my voice. I will give my presence. I can identify with that and take action.
Annalisa Holcombe (22:30):
John, can you tell me what that was like? You are in Minnesota, so the George Floyd murder happened near you, and you are already active as a voice of, you do something about the dignity of others, but you're also a police officer. What was that time like for you, and what was it like for your community?
John Littlewolf (22:57):
It was hard here in Minneapolis. The day after, it was shortly after, I went down there and saw the site and where he was murdered. I listened to people and I listened to their pain, and it was profound. To see that happen, to see what the nation saw and to think, "Wow, this didn't need to happen," this man could still be alive today and we watched life slip from him before our very eyes. That still lit something inside of me, like so many other people, so many people took to the streets, so many people made their voices heard. For me, I don't fall into that mindset of I am profession. I am more than that. I am who I am before my profession and long after this ends and I retire, I am still going to be that person after. What does my inner constitution say? What does my inner values say? They say no, this is not right. Something isn't right here. This needs to change, and what can I do about it.
John Littlewolf (24:11):
This is still a work in progress in Minneapolis, and I live in the Twin Cities. I live in the neighboring city of St. Paul, but this is still going to take a lot of work. I'm sad that it took the life of this man to get to this point, but we can forget that. We can forget where this dialogue came from, and for that, push harder for change.
Annalisa Holcombe (24:41):
I have two thoughts about that, from what you're saying. One would be how do you think what you've learned in your research can inform how we respond to this? That idea that the trauma that our police officers might be going through all over as a result of this. I just wonder how that could show up in a way that could actually help us resolve, rather than pit us against each other.
John Littlewolf (25:12):
I have a couple thoughts on this, and it goes back to empathy and compassion in the culture. As I said before, we're indoctrinating our new officers. That's where we actually get the skills and the mindset of the job when they first come on. Most departments have field training programs. We do too. We teach them our norms, our assumptions, and what we value. This is either by official title, by, let's say, the official leaders of the agency, the chiefs, and it's also by the unofficial leaders, those long term officers, the sargents, the peers on the job. What are we indoctrinating there?
John Littlewolf (25:52):
Mr. Floyd was dehumanized. His dignity was taken. There was zero respect. You insert empathy and compassion, I think that could have changed. Dehumanizing, being so cruel, and saying someone's life is less than worthy, absolutely, that's a cultural, something that's culturally instilled. We look back, and how could they be so cruel? How could they be so cruel? How did they get there? That wasn't just a flash in the pan. That wasn't a lightning strike. That was a slow storm that built. How do we get in there and change this?
John Littlewolf (26:40):
This where I need people to take a leap of thought here. How well are we taking care of our officers because what we put on them is going to come back to us? If we're not taking care of our officers, they're not going anywhere. Police are not going anywhere, and this is my fear, that nothing's going to change. If we can address some of this stuff, and we know that trauma causes these reactions, we know that is caused disassociation, we know that it causes flash anger, we know that it causes rage. We know it causes these things, so can we try to take care of our officers because they are in our community? God forbid I have a child someday and nothing changes and he calls the police and he's looked at a certain way and there's a rush to judgment and he gets the worst of it? That's a fear in my mind as a Native American man, that when I have children that nothing will change, but that falls back to us today. What can we do?
John Littlewolf (27:49):
The emotional culture of an agency, the ability to have cultural empathy and appreciation for a culture different than your own, we need to inject that into our departments. We need to get this into our agencies because it's not there. I'm there. It's not there.
Annalisa Holcombe (28:08):
When you hear people talk about, it makes me think about the idea of defund the police, what does that mean to you as a police officer?
John Littlewolf (28:21):
I think that's a lot about law enforcement officers pushback on that defund the police, but this job has drifted into areas we weren't intended. We're not mental health practitioners. We're not social workers in the true sense of social workers. From my perspective, if we can divert resources to other modalities, other programs, absolutely, please do. A lot of these calls and a lot of these missteps are misunderstandings and lack of training and a lack of awareness about what mental illness is and how it looks and how to react to it. That's exactly what I see there. It's not a cause for alarm. It's not a call for abolishing the police. It's a call for getting funding to other programs, other avenues better suited for this and working in conjunction with them, to get the services to the people that need it so we don't get hurt, so they don't get hurt.
Annalisa Holcombe (29:27):
That makes a lot of sense to me. I see it as a place where I understand the thought that people may believe that that means we don't want police officers, but I think that it's the contrary. We want police officers to police.
John Littlewolf (29:43):
Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Annalisa Holcombe (29:47):
One of the things you said earlier and as you were talking about your response to George Floyd's murder, you said that you went there the next day, to the site of his death, and spoke to people and heard and in some ways, I believe you really experienced empathy. You went there and felt the pain of individuals who were feeling pain. I think that I see that as a central part of your activism, as the I'm going to actually show up. Can you give me examples of how we can put that type of activity, that real compassion and empathy into our activism? I think a lot of us are filtered from the actual pain through screens of various sizes. I'm interested in what it takes to really act in your activism.
John Littlewolf (30:47):
Let me preface by saying that if anybody's doing anything, unique to them, whatever they can do. If they can just send five dollars, great. That's awesome. If they are not a front line person, awesome. Please, just support, just do what you can where you can within your means.
Annalisa Holcombe (31:18):
If this conversation has caught your attention and you want to join in on conversations like this, check out our website at connectioncollaborative.com.
Annalisa Holcombe (31:34):
Welcome back. You're listening to 92,000 Hours, and today we're speaking with my friend, Dr. John Littlewolf.
Annalisa Holcombe (31:49):
I have another question that I had for you, which is about I saw something that on Indigenous Peoples Day, you posted a photo of yourself at a Columbus monument. I was interested in whether you encountered additional people and were you able to experience compassion and empathy in your discussions with people, or did you have any? Tell me about that moment because I want to bring it back to it's both your compassion, there's some hint of activism there, and there's also the importance of your most proud accomplishment is really leaning into your lineage as a Native American. Tell me about that.
John Littlewolf (32:54):
Yeah. This little story was with my wife and it was on Indigenous Peoples Day. Let me preface by saying I try to practice compassion and empathy. The State of Minnesota had a Columbus statue on its grounds. It was put there in the '20s or '30s. I'm not sure of the date, but it was pulled down last summer. In my opinion, rightly so. The man's record, anything in history that you read about this man is just horrible. The horrible crimes that he did. Today we would call them crimes against humanity. We would try him in some international court, but to have him on a pedestal? No. That never sat well with me.
John Littlewolf (33:42):
We went down there and we're having a dinner, and this other contrary group showed up. We opened the dialogue. We're like hey, we're here because this man's a monster and a murderer and history tells us so. They immediately countered with attacking our source of facts and debating with us the accuracy of our facts and where'd you get your sources. We're like wow, we can't dialogue here.
John Littlewolf (34:16):
It became sort of this weird standoff with these people loving this absent statue and praying before it and idolizing this man. Me being a non-violent activist and disrupter, if you will, I put on some Native American music on my phone, some Pow Wow music, if you call it that. I turned it up and I set it at the base of the statue, and we sat there for a little bit. It was such a weird dynamic. Watching for people pray for this stump of a statue with me playing Pow Wow music over them, and I had to laugh a little bit and it was just like wow. My wife and I actually tried to converse and it was shut down with religious dogma and a questioning of where we got our facts, but that's how we ended that experience.
Annalisa Holcombe (35:17):
I think that's fascinating because one of the questions I have for you, John, is I wrote down that our national discourse is clearly at a very difficult, hyper partisan, and I think your example is also like a there is no more shared facts with different people. I wonder to those conversations, do you have any advice about how we might approach it with compassion and empathy? That is a difficult place for us to be.
John Littlewolf (35:50):
I think if I would have met this guy at the gas station and his group any other day, we would have talked about the weather. We would have talked about sports, but on this topic there was no dialogue. I stress again, we earnestly tried. We tried.
Annalisa Holcombe (36:09):
Do you believe that he tried as well with you?
John Littlewolf (36:14):
I think he tried in his own way, with a religious dogma counter, and we were both just so far off. Yeah. Can I take on the view of this man mourning the stump of a statue? Yeah, I can have compassion for that, but from what I heard, he wasn't coming at it from his heritage was attacked or that he was willing to look at any of the atrocities that this man had committed. He was just there because something that he idolized and something that his dogma told him to honor was attacked.
Annalisa Holcombe (36:52):
Fascinating.
John Littlewolf (36:53):
Yeah.
Annalisa Holcombe (36:54):
Can you tell me, and I don't even know how to, this isn't a question that I wrote down, but I'm interested in it and I think it has to do with that conversation you were having and really the space that you hold as a Native American man. What is it like for you, as you talked about there are 3,000 people in your tribe, but I also feel like you bring such compassion to how you hold yourself in the world, and I just wonder what does that feel like?
John Littlewolf (37:42):
I think I see the world differently, of course, as other people just because my experiences were different, but I also recognize that lineage that I talked about, that there's something bigger than me. It's not just about John and John's needs. There's selflessness. In the indigenous community there's selflessness. There's caring. There's giving. There's beauty. There's this whole other lens to see the world in. As I've gotten older and I've recognized colonization for what it is and I recognize the socioeconomic system for what it is and I see these things, and I lean more into my culture and it feels like home. It feels right and just and it's like okay, this is where I belong and this is how I should see the world.
Annalisa Holcombe (38:36):
What does compassion look like in your personal relationships, first, and then the second part of that question is, what can compassion look like for yourself? How can we be compassionate to ourselves?
John Littlewolf (38:49):
Oh wow. That's been a shortcoming of mine, that pause for myself, and it wasn't until my wife pointed out some things to me that I was suffering that I didn't know. I knew that there were issues from my experiences on the job, but I can take that moment for somebody else but can I take it for myself. Even recently, we were vaccinated at work and I'm like can we give it to someone. Yeah, they're like no, you're a first responder. You need to take this because you're going to spread the virus.
John Littlewolf (39:29):
I think this comes with a lot of people with my mindset that okay, we need reminders to take moments for ourselves, to take care for ourselves. I'm ever grateful for my wife for reminding me one day at an apple orchard that I needed seek help for not only myself, but for our relationship, that I was having an adverse reaction to a normal situation.
Annalisa Holcombe (39:54):
Wow. I think that that's important, the compassion we both show and experience from others. Do you have an example of a moment of compassion that effected you? Where you were shown compassion? John Littlewolf (40:13):
Absolutely. There's been, throughout my life, there's been these people that have interjected in my life and where I was going one way and I meet this person and they do something that they don't have to do. They take time or space or an act of kindness that they did not have to do, by job title or otherwise, and it sends my like in a different trajectory. There was a professor in college, Dr. Annie Henry, who took that moment for me, and that shot me into a different direction. Gave me the grades that I needed to eventually get into grad school later on. It was a building of a relationship there, taking time that she didn't have to do, but she did. These other people in my life that have just come in and shown me love and tolerance.
John Littlewolf (41:09):
I'm a part of another fellowship that in anonymous, but in that fellowship we practice love and tolerance. Alex is one of my great change agents in my life, and he showed me this new way of life. Yeah, he didn't have to and now I have to give that away. I have to give that away if I want to keep it. It's kind of how that works.
Annalisa Holcombe (41:35):
You're working at it all the time.
John Littlewolf (41:37):
Yeah.
Annalisa Holcombe (41:37):
That we practice that compassion all the time. Tell me about, you wrote a book of poetry, and I'm interested, I just, by the way, love the juxtaposition of what we talked about earlier. the expectation of almost heroic, toxic, masculinity that we give to police officers in our society juxtaposed with what our society may think of as more feminine and soft as the poetic world. I think that you represent such a good example that protection and, I don't know. It's the way you approach your life, I think, that is the role of providing dignity and compassion to humans I think might be informed by the way that you express yourself through poetry. I'm just really interested in you talking to me about how does compassion show up in poetry that you write.
John Littlewolf (42:52):
Interesting. Well, the source of the poetry is definitely my mother.
Annalisa Holcombe (43:01):
Really?
John Littlewolf (43:02):
We were not a patriarchal family. We were matriarchal, and my mother was the alpha in the household and rightly so. I found out later after she passed, I was going through some of her things and there was some poetry in there. That, for me, hit me right in my chest.
Annalisa Holcombe (43:18):
I bet. Wow. John Littlewolf (43:21):
There it is. That's the source because I always wondered why, where did that come from, and I believe that she passed that on. I've learned to embrace it. It was always there, and it was a way that I didn't always have the vocal tools to express it. I couldn't always find the words, but if you asked me to write it, if you asked me to describe it in word, write it down, type it out, I could do that and the floodgates were open. I can still do that. That's my best mode of communication. I think recognizing that in my 20s and embracing it is not something to be ashamed of, but to be shared. It's like okay, I'm recognizing that not everybody thinks like this. It's the only way I know how to think. Okay, if they're telling me that this is something to share and it's there, okay, let's share it.
Annalisa Holcombe (44:15):
That's awesome. It's also an act of courage as well because I believe that poetry, when you read it, is this opening into people's souls in ways that you wouldn't otherwise get.
John Littlewolf (44:27):
Oh my god, yes. It's unedited. It's raw. If you want to get away, the BS, scrap away the BS, there it is. You read the essence of that person. You read who they are, and what's why I love it. It's just, yeah.
Annalisa Holcombe (44:45):
Well, I love it. I think it's just a really, I think the poetry is a really important way for us to exercise our empathy because often poetry, it's what you said, we feel it without all of the other stuff around it. It's a way to connect deeply with somebody so quickly in ways you would otherwise it would take years to get to.
John Littlewolf (45:12):
Absolutely, and it's universal. It can cross all those imaginary things that we've set up.
Annalisa Holcombe (45:18):
Well, you talked about this a little bit before, but in addition to maybe this professor that you had, do you have any stories about a mentor who could have influenced your life? Mentorship matters to me a lot, but I have lots of different ideas about what mentors might look like in our lives. Is there anybody that you particularly wanted to talk about that you haven't mentioned already?
John Littlewolf (45:51):
No. There's been a number of mentors I've had. It's been a lot, and a lot of them probably didn't know that I was watching them. Taking things from situations, whether it be ideas, practices, just something I reach out and put in my pocket. I'm like wow, I want to practice that. That's how I want to be. Throughout my law enforcement career, I've had awesome native officers mentor me.
Annalisa Holcombe (46:17):
That's lovely.
John Littlewolf (46:18):
Yeah. From day one all the way, well still currently, it's an ongoing thing. You really understand the depth of compassion and empathy where you learn these things, like the power that you're entrusted with, you understand that if I write this person a citation and school says I can do it, the law says I can do it, I don't have to do it, I have discretion, and you realize that this citation maybe a bill for that person for that month and I'm sure, other situations, I'm sure if this person could get their headlight fixed, they would. I'm sure if they could fix that taillight or weren't stalled out on the side of the road broke down, they would do something about it. You realize that you have an obligation there to think bigger, to think bigger than just that moment, to realize that this is a person, this is a part of your community, and it's going to be bigger than that five minute citation that you're going to write. You're going to impact this person's life.
Annalisa Holcombe (47:23):
I think that's something that we can apply to all of our work and professional situations, though, is just what you said. Regardless of the fact that I'm not in a position to give anyone a citation, but I might be in a position to interact with a colleague in a way that embraces their humanity and sees them as a whole person that day.
John Littlewolf (47:44):
Absolutely. Absolutely. This is not unique to law enforcement. There's going to be instances where people have an edge in power or an opportunity to do something, and it can go one way or it can go another. What's going to be best for that person in the end? What's going to be best for the community in the end? It goes back to what's driving our organizations. Is it going to be a sense of empathy and compassion? Is it going to be a bottom line? Dollar signs?
Annalisa Holcombe (48:15):
I think that's right. It is what you value because even what you talked about, if your law enforcement agency is saying that we do value the number of citations you give out, then it will affect the way that you handle that particular situation.
John Littlewolf (48:29):
Absolutely. Absolutely. How are we interacting with the public that we serve? It does. The messages that leaders unofficial send to the new officers, the ones that are on the front line, absolutely, that message matters.
Annalisa Holcombe (48:45):
Thank you, my friend.
John Littlewolf (48:47):
Thank you.
Annalisa Holcombe (48:47):
See you later.
Annalisa Holcombe (49:05):
I am so grateful to John for his thoughtfulness and his wisdom. Since our interview, he was appointed to the Minnesota Attorney General's Conviction Review Advisory Board. You can learn more about his work by connecting with him on LinkedIn, and I encourage you to learn more about his book of poetry, entitled Send on Good Reads. I purchased it, and I can tell you it's beautiful.
Annalisa Holcombe (49:31):
Next week, we will be speaking with Engels Tejeda. Engels is a trial lawyer, a diversity and inclusion advocate, and a naturalized US citizen. We will be speaking with him about empathy.
Annalisa Holcombe (49:57):
As always, thank you for listening to 92,000 Hours. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and leave us a review. We really appreciate your support. If you're interested in integrating the personal and profession through authentic conversation, just like you heard on our episode today, please check out our work at Connection Collaborative. You can find us at connectioncollaborative.com or send me an email at annalisa@connectioncollaborative.com.
Annalisa Holcombe (50:25):
Thank you and see you next week on 92,000 Hours.
Annalisa Holcombe (50:28):
92,000 Hours is made possible by Connection Collaborative. This episode was produced and edited by Breanna Steggell, Lexie Banks is our marketing director, and I'm your host, Annalisa Holcombe.